Author Topic: Ban Flats!!  (Read 15449 times)

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Joerg

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2016, 08:46:59 AM »
Wow,

frankly said - coming from the knowledge, that I will never get any reward
in a show, I really appreciate, what I can avoid of concerns,
when I paint and combine my little guys. ;D
And it is all based of ONE opinion......
Liquorice, sire, is not the least important of our benefits out of the dark heart of Arabia.

G.K.Chesterton

Hannibal

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2016, 08:27:04 AM »
How can this point be addressed by one (chief)  judge, if there was no contest at that show?

"Actually what he said was  ( referring to flats )  "competitions are not about painting skills, its about the modelling"!!!  And this from a Chief Judge!!!

(I ignore the difference in the UK between Chief Judge and judge, as anyone can play one role or another in contests )

Perhaps this judge is still exclusively dealing with figures like  the old Airfix characters made of 10 to 25 pieces to be assembled.  ( I would guess therefore that this judge is quiet old) 
....[ My first acrylic and . only "Model Figure" in 2012 !! perhaps I can bring to that Figure Show still !  It was an outstanding experience after assembling and painting "Model Ships" ]

But the world has changed ever since.... because  today 80% of the figures are moulded in one single piece, like flats,, perhaps two or three,  not assembled nor glued, therefore should also be banned, because "only painted" without any assembling or gluing ?

You might explain him these facts and share his strong love for vintage 'model' figures

In (continental) Europe, on shows we separate in contest  the figurines which deal with human or animal characters, real or fantastic;  and the Models which are are anything else (cars, submarines, tanks, aircrafts, ships, ...) having separate catégories on contest.  And there usually have separate judges too (except for juniors, due to the low number of pieces registered).

The distinction is not based on complexity of the device, but its subject !
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 12:08:16 AM by Hannibal »
Michel
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Brian

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2016, 07:58:13 AM »
Phew!!!   at last sorted!!

Nicholas Ball

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2016, 07:48:42 AM »
Simple.

Are the figures created using a mould----Yes
Are Busts, and figures created from a mould ---Yes

Therefore they must be classed as models

Are flats painted to the best of our abilities  - Yes
Are Busts, and round figures painted to the best of their abilities- Yes

Therefore it is all Art 

Sorted   hahaha

Brian

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2016, 05:46:57 AM »
Getting heavy!!
1/  UK
2/ Figure show
3/ Many
4/ again many
5/ one comment but it could be the opinion of many
6/ no contest
7/ yes   

Hannibal

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2016, 04:50:30 AM »
Should be more specific to understand the concern:
1) Where was this reported (in the UK, in USA, in Europe, ...)
2) During which occasion ? (a model show of tanks or vehicles, a general show including figures and models, ...)
3) How many times was this show organized before
4) How many flats were present ?  Also with or without other figures?
5) Was the remark raised by several people? by participants, during the evaluation?
6) Were there separate catégories for the various models exposed, and figures directly related, or other periods (where no models were presented, like middle age, antiquity,)?
7) was fantastic also presented during ths 'model show'?
8) How was the claim raised ?  during private discussion, during judgment? to the organizers of the show

Reviewing this single question on a forum table is useless without context; perhaps just a minor remark of an individual to another participant, so not a big deal.  If I aised at Lyon a remark " why should models not be banned from a figurines show? = would this develop a concern of the model hobby towards such show? or on the contrary not be an opportunity to expand, explain the association, on dioramas, combinations, ...

So et us know the context or extend of this observation at this stage
Michel
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Brian

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2016, 02:53:47 AM »
"I don't do favouritism"

And I'm sure no judges do hahaha

Now can we get back to the question, should flats be banned from model contest, so far I see the flat being referred to as art! this is not helping.





Hannibal

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2016, 12:27:11 AM »
I am with you Willie !! 


It all comes from Brian say = " If some one thinks that flats should not be at these shows,".  We are now far away from his question... and  why to make this all, if on people had ever said in one show this? Just exclude that painter shows as a judge and continue the business as it ever went ...   (unless this fellow had more influence what has not been explained). 


We had an issue last year on banning flats from use because of European legisltations dealing wih the materials , and this is indeed a very threatening issue which would have devastated this hobby and its business.


Lastly, for judging, I gave the extreme, perhaps used somewhat in the past, (I am too new 4 years), but establishing a list of characteristcs of "what to look on a flat" would not be a bad idea for fellows involved in judging their peers if they came one day to be proposed to do so. 
And it would also be very useful in parallel to all painters to have their attention turned on the same several aspects of the painting which will be assessed when bringing their work for such hobby competitions.   

We all came so very close judgments, using probably similar criteria based on our own experience.
Michel
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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2016, 10:56:40 PM »
 OK Guys enough. I think that you have enough to chew on.  Hannibal has some good ideas, Nick , Brain, Gerry also in fact you all do. I would make one suggestion keep it simple. I am not saying that you should not have standards,or  give them up.  But if you do over kill you have killed the hobby. I am not saying that Judging is bad. This is one of the things you are going to have to work out to get that balance . I think that getting a Gold Sliver Bronze is great, but that's not what I am going to shows for I am going to show my stuff off and learn something new. I know that Judging is hard and yes we should have a flat section at these shows. If some one thinks that flats should not be at these shows, then I will not come to your show, but tell those venders out there that they have lost sales and see what happens. Look I like all you guys and want to see this hobby grow. Willie     

Hannibal

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2016, 07:09:12 PM »
Here is how I would judge the paintings:

A.   Judgment system:[/b]  Look for the flats at the following evaluations

a.   Quality of painting : accuracy of painting, of the details, neat, precise, sharp, presence of dark lines separating colours for distinct view; eyes, face, foldings, treatment of horse, legs and feet, quality of hair painting, ….    Score = on 5 points
b.   Colours balance = harmonized or not, desaturated when needed for subject, treatment of shadows with black or tones, use of single colours or nuances   Score = on 3 points
c.   Light source : visible and clear to viewer or multiple, all directions making unrealistic or uncontrolled    Score on 3 points
d.   Lighting and Shadows: in line with light source or not, use of thrown shadow, reflected lights or not, on the face, in clothes, on the horse.  Maximum effect for 3D space feeling lige a figurine     Score = 5 points
e.   Tone transition and tone melting : smooth, acute, juxtaposed, unexperienced, absent   Score = 3 points
f.   Free hands (if any) : accurate, detailed, repetitive motives the same or at random, inaccurate, … Score= 3 points  (or none assigned)
g.   Enhancing or downgradings : these things making the piece better or poorly handled = points additional (positive) or removed (negative); examples
i.   Additional features for decoration
ii.   Partial conversion of the flat to enhance its quality and design
iii.   Very original treatment of light or colours (outside standards was copying others, special lightening unusual, like from the back, from a candle, …)
iv.   Poorly prepare flat, residual visible defects holes, poor gluing (if any), which downgrades the final effect from an excellent painter
Can be + or -  05, 1 or  2 points  on total or none if no remark
Sum-up maximum score, sum up points given and recalculate on 20;     gold is 18, 19, 20; silver is 17, 16, 15   bronze is 14, 13, 12   (merit) is above 10.


B.    Flats or Not ?? to me resin flats are flats, just instead of casting with metal, it is reproduced from a master also but with resin as we do for figurines also.  The material is not the issue, it is the technique of creating a flat two dimensional sculpturing of the subject instead of ronde-bosse (3D), painted n all sides.  The ‘demi-ronde bosse’ are flats too. 
1.   Is a resin flat initially engraved and reproduced
2.   Is a flat
3.   Is a flat; engraving is done on a flat resin surface (Yvan Durand), and the piece is copied = there are more “flat” surfaces than a classical casted flat, but to be treated for tromp-l’oeil effect as 3D
4.   Is a classical casted metallic flat
5.   Is a flat, but I am not sure the character at the centre is not a figurine?
6.   Is not a flat, but composed of 2 or three thin flat surfaces on which drawing was made without engraving = like a “Miniature” painting even if two surface are juxtaposed.  Most of these works are unique pieces classified also as “Creations” in Europe.  You seem to consider them as “Miscellaneous”   They are similar to canvas painting but on other flat material wood, plastic, metal, box cover, … cardboard ….


C.    Judgments

I transposed the pics on PC to enlarge them a bit for some details as I would look with my eyes at short distance, but no more enlargement than actual flat size !!! on the screen; I also lightened the French riders flat usually saved underexposed to have a fair judgment with a normal light source.

No 1:   
•   5/5 for painting quality, accurate, precise, detailed, lining present
•   3/3 for colour tones
•   3/3 for light source = unique, clearly defined
•   4.5/5 for lightening and shadows, perhaps the decorations on back of hat, and horse bag on back of soldier are a bit too bright
•   No free hands
•   3/3 for excellent tone transitions
•   Enhancing = no comments
So 18.5/19 =   19.5/20=  gold

For historical flats, one could add also a rating for correctness of the colours used, but I am not sure people still consider this, or are themselves sufficiently acknowledgeable except in specific areas to be able to consider it at 100% without request a certification of uniformology to each judge and all period of the History.
Perhaps consider visible mistakes in the Enhancement section as (negative 1 or 2 points ) downgrading obvious mistakes !!

No 2:
•   5/5 for painting quality, accurate, precise, detailed, lining present
•   3/3 for colour tones  desaturated ad good balance is given
•   3/3 for light source = appears unique and visible clearly defined as front upwards to the right in front of flat .
•   4/5 for lightening and shadows, good, present, visible, generally OK, two remarks = the lighening of the left hand is from the left instead of facing to right; and the character behind the others is still too bright for its gun and left hand, and the left shoulder and arm of soldier on his knee of the central character should be more in the shadow of the central body, left side of boot of the central character could be more in the shadow.
•   No free hands
•   3/3 for excellent tone transitions
•   Enhancing = no comments
So 18/19 =   19/20=  gold

No 3:
•   4.5/5 for painting quality, accurate, precise, detailed, lining sometimes weak  confusing sometimes adjacent colours for distinct separation
•   3/3 for colour tones  with some colour spots
•   1.5/3 for light source = appears multiple and very weak, indication either an artistic intention to have no light source, only environmental, or no good control of what and where is the source of the light
•   2/5 for lightening and shadows, weak almost absent on the face, not consistent on the arms, on the masks, neck , best perhaps is he bustier, but not very visible; general feeling is a cartoon rather a 3 dimensional character sculplted by the light .
•   3/3 for free hands = accurate, regular, nice control : remark on the spot on the face = spot? A tattoo?  A flewing rimmel ?
•   1/3 for tone transitions = weak on clothes folding, on hair and masks
•   Enhancing = no comments

So 15/22 =   13.6/20=  bronze

No 4:   (darkness enhanced on PC)
•   5/5  Painting : neat, accurate, readable even at distance, details well given and rich, details on the flag , faces, clothes 
•   3/3  Colours : good balance, realistic with the subject
•   3/3 Light: zenithal to left in front of plan, and contrary at bottom
•   3/3 Transition, melting of tones : hardly visible here on 30mm except on horse
•   No visible Free hands work
•   4/5 Lightings and shadows = good overall consistency includes thrown shadows from swords, reins, …visible and consistent also for the horses and their legs, drum . However the horses have very correct shaping of the muscles, but a bit lack of shadow, although a thrown shadow is painted for tools external to their surface (if grey weather, those would be non visible) so small inconsistency, white horses look too ; same for the flag , red coat (officer); fro the hats, lightening not totally consistent with ‘almost’ zenithal
•   Enhances particular:
(+ 1) for the decoration of the grass added on the ground 
(- 1) two swords could have been pointed before painting for such swords
Rating =   18/19 =   19/20  GOLD

No 5: Flats perhaps with a figurine in front?
•   1.5/5  Painting: rather rough and primary, single colours no nuance, short in details neat, despite some in the face and the legs, not lining between tones, no distinction between hat and feather on top.
•   1/3  Colours : could have been brighter for that period; the metal is rather poorly represented by a grey, with some white spots
•   1/3  Light : unclear, not understood (spots on weapon from right,  face from left, none on clothes, ..
•   1/3  Tones transition, melting (fondus): quiet primary on the legs or none
•    Free hands painting (not used)
•   1.5/5 Lightnings and shadows: some on faces, legs, hands, but not elsewhere, more cartoon painting, some shadows on bottom of hands, clothes, hat, hair, but very shy, top hands in the light
•   Enhances : no
Rating = 6/19 or 6.5/20  = NONE

No 6:

•    5/5  Painting: excellent achievement, detailed, accurate, neat, in particular on the face to attract attention on it, outstanding painting of the skin and face.
•   3/3  Colours : globally well selected for a good effect
•   3/3 Light : clear direction high right in front of figure
•   3/3  Tones transition, melting (fondus): excellent, very smooth, no defect, even skin mark done to render it realistic
•    3/3  It is all free hands painting here as no engraving was done …..
•   4.5/5 Lightning and shadows: overall well achieved, perhaps the left side of the hand too bright for the orientation given to the light and orientation of the fan, in the shadow towards the left, making the hand more remote than actually painted.
•   Enhances :  --
Total =  21.5/22  = 19.5/20 = GOLD



This looks complex, but after some training, mutually exchanged, cotation is faster, logged in a column sheet, and if like in Lyon last year, all is loaded on a tablet, calculatikon is not automatically .... and summarized, compared, averaged, ... even used for training purpose to exercise judges agsints experienced judges or painters.
Of course subject toreview and changes, only how I would do after two erercises in real compétitions but sideways.
The last step is automatically in the head .... but details alow to defend rating and explain to the painters the rationales and rooms for improvement, min purpose of these hobby activities...
Michel
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gerry Larkin

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2016, 06:59:22 PM »
likewise :D

Nicholas Ball

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2016, 06:05:00 PM »
I don't do favourtism :)

Brian

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2016, 05:16:34 PM »
See this is the hard part!!
The figure I know well, and is by a good friend and I was trying not to show favouritism that I feel would look obvious, another pitfall in judging, we know each others figures and trying to step away and be objective is very hard.
There is nothing wrong with the figure, I used it as an example to show one of the many difficulties in judging

So going back to a set of guide lines for flat judging it just can not work, you give a set to a figure judge and all your saying is they don't know what there looking at.       

Hannibal

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2016, 05:13:40 PM »
sorry was ready, pushed wrong key all gone, so on word, then dinner , then movie, back to PC, I continue ....
Michel
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gerry Larkin

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Re: Ban Flats!!
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2016, 03:54:08 PM »
likewise :D