Author Topic: European Union will bann Tin figures  (Read 15184 times)

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Nicholas Ball

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2015, 10:41:09 AM »
Hi Markus, how are you doing? good to have you on here.

if I don't get a reply from the scientific officer by Tuesday, I will email him again.

I will then if necessary get hold of Klio, Berliner etc. to make a more forward push.

Webhave a saying here,  slowly slowly little Monkey ----  then if all else fails we send in BRIAN with his 'little tank'       

if that don't scare them, nothing will   hahaha

errant49

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2015, 02:07:00 PM »
Thanks Markus
I see that the flat community is gathering against this stupid EEC idea
Eric

MaEck

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2015, 01:51:50 PM »
Dear Gentlmen,

this my first post over here, so first let me say somthing about my person. My name is Markus Eckmann,  I´m from Bavaria / Germany, I´m a figure enhusiast, I`m the owner of a figure company and I´m the publisher of the Figure-Mad-Forum.

I brought this discussion to Planet Figure, but I fear the discussion over there ist not very helpful. Your discussion is more constructive and similiar to the discussion in in the Figure-Mad-Forum.

I think the planned ban of the tin figure is a farce. Especially when we have a closer look on the planned guidline. As more I read it as more I see how illogical the whole guideline is. Toys are allowed, ammuniation is allowed (for me as sportshooter ok), but figures that are not planned as toys for children are forbidden. In my opinion that`s simply crazy...

I think it is very imortant that we see the figure in general - not only the flat figures. To cast figures with lead free whitemetal ist no probleme if you take small figures like 25mm or tabletops. For flats and bigger round figures it is extremely difficult or nearly impossible. OK, we could use resin, but if I think about what this means to a company with 100, 200 or more figures... No one will be able to pay that all...

So I hope we as figure enthusiasts will be able to stand together and bring this to a reasonable result.     

Take care,
Markus
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 10:20:39 PM by MaEck »

Hannibal

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2015, 01:47:47 PM »
Glen, your suggestion on symbols is indeed bright, but these not acceptable in Europe, as it won't be in the USA either, because these symbols (except the triangle with ! (*) are not harmonized, by a EU directive, end therefore must be explicitely explained, for exemple in an Instructions for Use or on the back of the box, when symbol is used on the unit label.
And "Pb" and "14" have no meaning.  So are "O" for oxygen, or "N" for Nitrogen (azote), and 14 is only a number, not a lot, nor a size, ...
(*) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_hazard_symbols
 
Michel
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Men are a bit like God: everything they can do, they do it. Or they will do it.  (Jean d'Ormesson)

Glen

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2015, 01:10:43 PM »
Pretty much all true Nick. But... the fact is many parents do NOT instill discipline in their kids. Too many adults can even control their own impulses. That is why so many governments have a predilection for imposing laws and enforcing the nanny state. It is endemic to human nature.


Are these rules also being imposed on round figure makers? What's their take. How about the gaming industry which has bazilions of 30mm figures and war machines engaged in tabletop gaming by kids and adults? There's a lot of money involved here, to say nothing of jobs.

[/size]As for stickers, why texts in so many languages? Why not a yellow triangle/diamond symbol (international symbol for caution) with a black '14'  and the letters Pb - the symbol for lead on the periodic table.[size=78%]


Glen
(obviously with time my hands...)

Nicholas Ball

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2015, 12:35:31 PM »
Hi Michel,

before I get into specifics, I would like to see what the Officer has to say.once he has seen my photo's he might get a better idea of what we are about.

I also re-read the document, and under directive 2009/48/EC  it states that toys would be exempt!!!

this makes no sense! toys by definition are items manufactured for the use by children. ie.from years 1-8.
therefore, toys made with lead would therefore be exempt from this ruling!!!  the second definition of a toy, in a Childs dictionary, is ' something to be put in ones mouth and throw at the dog!!!'

if I understand this is correct, the rules and regulations are as with most regulations, in a right mess!

The problem with regulations is that the more you regulate, the more complicated it all gets!

these are not toys, so where is the harm?   if it needs a label, well so be it, but what really does this achieve except extra unwanted and unnecessary  costs to the manufacturers.

My kids never ever touched my figures, they were on a shelf, and although my son was a bit of a menace climbing all over the tables, window sills etc. not once did he go near the book case.
it's called discipline, something that needs to be readdressed with the EU.
children and adults need to be held responsible again for their own actions. in a democracy we are as i recall suppose to have a choice.

unfortunately, I have come to learn from buisness that apparently there are no more accidents!!
someone else is always responsible. All it does is make life harder and lesscenjoyable.



Hannibal

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2015, 07:59:35 AM »
Me again, Nicholas
 
On the french site , excellent point was made, remembering me my 20 years fights in a Japanese medical devices company to develop complinat devices wuith EU régulations:

Pas de panique
comme je l'ai écris sur un forum de nos copains anglais :

The text contain statement : ( in the ECHA document
http://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/a55e40f4-9515-475a-a6de-25bd991c3f84 )

Table 2-B Article types which are exempted as covered by European Union legislation specifically regulating lead content
.....
3. Toys Directive 2009/48/EC on the safety of toys.

B. : Then I read the directive
Now in the Directive, we read (
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:170:0001:0037:en:PDF )
List of products that, in particular, are not considered as toys within the meaning of this Directive (as referred to in Article 2(1))
....
2. Products for collectors, provided that the product or its packaging bears a visible and legible indication that it is intended for collectors of 14 years of age and above. Examples of this category are: (a) detailed and faithful scale models; (b) kits for the assembly of detailed scale models; (c) folk dolls and decorative dolls and other similar articles; (d) historical replicas of toys; and (e) reproductions of real fire arms.

So I think that from now, all producers, importers, sellers must add on the packaging " intended for collectors of 14 years of age and above "
But, I guess, it must be written in the country official language .. So importers prepare some stickers ( exemple; in Belgium it must be in french, netherland, german . those are the 3 officials in Belgium )

http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/t14585-interdiction-du-plomb-dans-les-figurines#301414
Indeed, and in particular with toys, requiring a CE safety mark (meaning a CE log must be affixed on toys, to state their safety Under the responsibility of the manufacturer,   1) we should probably avoid these flats to be named "TOYS", by a statement of the device on the package2) That statement should indeed exclude the use of the device as a TOY explicitely as suggested3) Such statements must be in the language of the country of sales, everywhere sold, as part of the packaging, and of the unit pack (if it can be sold as a single unit).  If sold in a neutral box as second hand, be careful to keep such statement affixed with a self adhesive sticker too !!! Therefore that sentence "intended for collectors of 14 years of age and above "  might have to say also, "This is not a toy, but ....." to exclude such intended use !Also the sentence must be affixed on the packaging of the unit(s) on sales, in the languages of the countries where sold. This means if selling in Germany, with German, in Italy, with Italian, in Swtzerland, with 4 languages, in Belgium also in three(FR, NL, DE), etc.... A group should coordinate the multilingual translation of the final sentence (like "This is not a toy, intended or collectors of 14 years age and above, contains lead" in all languages in Europe and byond Europe (Russian see Vladimir Nuhzdine), ... and freeeze these translations are totally equivalent (no addition, no shortcut), for use by all manufacturers and distributors on the same way. My recommendation is to define globally, or by manufacturer where they are selling their flats, then define the first three largest sales for fixing three languages mostly used, perhaps four ... Then affix the most used on the packages of the manufacturer (German editors may choose German, English, ...)  French ons, like (deleted) perhaps French (only?  or French/German/English), and include this in their base pakaging lay-out. But then when selling to other countries (like EBay, or exhibitions elsewhere, ), they will have 1) to post explicitey these sentences visibly on the selling boot2) when selling a flat to a user not of the language present, Add a small sticker in the missing language (example, when coming at Ransart Belgium, add a Dutch sticker on the pack sold, when shipping to Italy, add a Italian sticker on the pack (in addition to the statement in the EBay ietm to warn the user; when selling in Spain, add a Spanish sticker before moving there on one pack exposed of each item, or add at time of sales !!) Indeed, information must be available in the language of the USER to be understood, as a saety notification !! Working on these proposals, perhaps with advise of the ECA on the sentence, BEFORE Kulmbach would be an excellent initative to offer concretely to care about such risk !! Although in Turkey now till Kulmbach, if I can be of ay support, don't hesitate...  Please establish a link with the key producers or most representative editors, at least in each country like FR, GE, ITaly, Spain, UK, .. to have at least on key eprson t participate to these discussions and perhaps be present at Kulmbach in August to finalize with the representative invited ..... This is a good exercise, that IFFS could lead with Germany, largest manufacturing country and organizer of Kulmbach in the coming two months, to bring an effective proposal to this safety concern.  We may end up with some recommendation guideleline to the editors, producers, distributors of flats on the European market via National association and this Society to be in line with these actions !!
With best regardsHannibal/Michel

 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 03:22:49 AM by Hannibal »
Michel
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Men are a bit like God: everything they can do, they do it. Or they will do it.  (Jean d'Ormesson)

Hannibal

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2015, 02:45:40 AM »
Nicholas,
It is a excellent initiatve to invite the  Scientific Officers - Risk Management Implementation at Kulmbach, although accessibiloties of the flats to the crowed public might be sensitive.
I have practice risk management in my career in the medical field, and argumentation is the best way to convonce people, faced with reality and the world of flats. Try to bring along anlso représentatives of this business like Klio, some engravers and producers, and if necessary to rent a business room in a nearby hotel for a open table discussion during that visit, inviting key partners from various coutries. Suggestions on warning labelling is a route to suggest on the products, if needed.   Actions necessary to preserve this art and activity is very important to many of us.
 
Michel
Michel
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Men are a bit like God: everything they can do, they do it. Or they will do it.  (Jean d'Ormesson)

Nicholas Ball

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2015, 04:46:22 PM »
Thanks Gents, at least we've made ourselves known.

 I think we have a good argument and I just hope the Scientific Officer agrees.





errant49

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2015, 03:26:49 PM »
Nick I will suggest you become a european deputy  :D, if ever Great Britain does not leave Europe  ::)
Anyway you are doing a great job
Eric

Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2015, 11:43:16 AM »
 That sounds great thank you 8)  Willie. Now what about that combat pay for back seat drivers

Nicholas Ball

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2015, 10:19:09 AM »
I expect a reply early next week, I will keep you all informed.

I have also mentioned that if they are that worried about small people putting dangerous items into their mouth's, then perhaps they should consider banning knives and forks!!  :o    If in 2 years time, we are all having to eat off of spoons, and choking on large lumps of meat, you will know who to blame!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D   

on a serious note though :-

I have also invited The Scientific Officer - Risk Management Implementation ( and his colleague's ) to visit me at Kulmbach
( should they want ) so that they can fully understand what these figurines are, how we display them and to discuss with everyone there the worries we all have for the future should this regulation be implemented.  I have also sent him a few photos of some of my work in preparation.

I hope this is acceptable to you all.

Nicholas

Hannibal

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2015, 09:30:41 AM »
I recommend you keep Klio informed on progress, as this is for them in Germany a major business. See my emails earler with their Président.
 
Best Regards
Michel
Michel
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Men are a bit like God: everything they can do, they do it. Or they will do it.  (Jean d'Ormesson)

Nicholas Ball

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2015, 04:54:51 AM »
I have had a reply back from ECHA. Apparently they have been investigating this process since 2013, but did not receive any comments for lead containing figures!!!   did any of you know this was being investigated????

Now this is where logic goes out the window!!

If these figurines were used purely for Museums or  exhibitions then they would then be automatically exempt, however as these can also be sold to collectors, which they broadly consider as  'consumers',  they believe that these items could be found in a household, in proximity of children ( if left on a table by accident!) who then might eat them!!!!!

I also fear that because people have been saying they are using them for wargaming, again children could get hold of them!!

They have in all fairness said they would like to explore these fears further with me, so I will reply as best I can.  I will be looking at exemption obviously

Nick

The date of this to come into effect is June 1st 2016

Hannibal

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Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2015, 07:47:03 AM »
for automatic translation on internet .....
http://www.figure-mad.com/smf/index.php?topic=4659.0
 
Michel
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Men are a bit like God: everything they can do, they do it. Or they will do it.  (Jean d'Ormesson)