30mm

[Glen]

All quite true Alexander. I often tell people small flats were the original war-gaming miniatures and consequently mass production painting was the norm versus high quality stand-alone display pieces. That is still true today, even in the 28-30mm mini gaming pieces. The difference is that mini manufacturers realized a growing demand for detail that matched larger scale figures and responded accordingly.


That said, attitudes within the 30mm world are slowly changing; more people (likely still a minority) want to enter them in comps, but are stymied by an overall lack of quality versus the larger scale flats and rounds. This makes 30mm entries at comps a bit thin. There are exceptions. The two most notable to me are Wolfgang's ACW series (last years BFFS painting project) and this years BFFS Thirty Years War project - also IIRC from Wolfgang in which I painted a horse for the first time in 35 years. I thought all of these pieces were very well done. The collaboration on the 45mm Napoleonic Pin-up Girls is another and I'm looking forward to more.


In light of the above, there are a number of roads available for the future; e.g. people just start painting pieces for the comps and rely on their painting skills to make the difference on a stock figure. Learn to improve detail with whatever they have on hand, then rely on their painting skills. Hope the makers see a potential market and pick up the gauntlet, so to speak. And, in a final measure of desperation, learn to draw, engrave, and cast their own flats. There is another way of course (and this was alluded to in an earlier post) and that is computer-generated art and 3D printing. A number of round figure companies are already well involved in making figures in various sizes and genres. This is an anathema to some in both the round and flat worlds, but it's here and it's not going away. 


Tired now. Later...


Glen

[aba]

Dear all,


I think there are some misunderstandings about flats.


Originally - i.e. from 1850 to 1950 - flats were not painted in an elaborate way. They were used basically that way the 1/72 plastic or pewter models are used today : To build large armies, for wargaming or to build Dioramas. There were very very few painters notably initially Douchkine, Kemnow or Glaser who painted differently. But most collectors of flats don´t paint to "exhibition standard" but large numbers !


Consequently the Kulmbach fair offers a "competition" on painted flats only from about 200x onwards but never before.


Today the number of flats collectors is probably decreasing but there are many younger collectors in Germany who use the now much extended range of 1/72 instead of flats. 30 years ago these would have collected flats.


BTW there is a 20mm range of flats which has been very popular 40 or 50 years ago but rarely meets any interest today.


Actually when collectors grow older they intend to move from "plain soldiers" to more complex historical or civilian subject. And there is only one prominent range of "scale figures" that offers more of these subjects than any other existing range of miniatures - 30mm flats.


So I believe they will stay popular but 30mm flats are probably not the first choice for a "painters contest" as not being meant for that purpose.


Best regards


Alexander

[nmrocks]

I will agree with Glen on this one, The size is not so much the issue as all you have to do is go to Pinterest and check out the 28mm warhammer and/or 40k figures and equipment, very well painted in small scale with beautiful artistic vision. Unfortunately "tradition" is a dying idea in our modern world and people are obsessed with the new and do not know or could care less about history. The "art of the Flat" in general and 30mm specifically is lost on the new generations, though I have seldom met a person unfamiliar with 30mm flats that doesn't have a "Wow"! reaction to there first viewing of a beautifully painted figure .
The hobby is not promoted in any way and product is difficult to purchase in relation to other hobbies, I see no reason why flat could not be a viable gaming option but I believe the subjects would have to be updated, then you would see the Art side grow in interest.
just my humble opinion,
Ray

Nick, no offen[c/s]e taken.


If 30mm is dying out, is it because the same old pieces, regardless of quality, are still being cranked out? Time, technology, and, of equal importance, painter's expectations, have evolved over the years. The level of sculpting and metallurgy in rounds has improved dramatically over the past two decades or so. I think the introduction of crisp and highly detailed resin figures forced the metal-based sculptors and manufacturers to seriously up their game. No one is looking back. I can't remember the last time I saw Valiant, IR, or New Hope Designs on a contest table. They may be out of production, but there's plenty in the bottom of painter's closets (trust me...). With the exception of some of the newer Trost releases, I haven't really seen that qualitative increase in the flat arena - in any scale. Additionally, the level of painting skills at shows has also increased dramatically. While it's possible someone could turn a 30mm sow's ear into a silk purse, I don't think they want to deal with the frustration, hence poor participation at shows.


Another thing I've noticed is that while 30mm covers all historical and other genres - fantasy, sci-fi, etc. - the small scale figure market here in the US is solidly in the camp of round fantasy gaming minis. The young (and some not so young) people painting these figures have little or no idea of, or interest in, the Napoleonic era, the Thirty Year's War, or the armies of Frederick the Great. Is that the case in Europe? If so, why hasn't the flat 'industry' tried to make inroads into that market?


Eric, you are absolutely correct about painting and collecting for pleasure. I think hobbies are the one thing in life where it is all about the individual - you paint what you want, when you want, to the degree of satisfaction you want. Everything else is secondary. Also, it's my understanding that Kulmbach is a flat specific gathering. It would seem natural that there would lots of vendors, flats, and collector/painters. Where are they at other shows? Surely flat enthusiasts go to other shows, yes? And X2 - ENJOY IT.


Glen

[alfsboy]

I've always looked on 30mm flats or flats in general as a tiny Germanic specific minority interest .One of the worlds smallest hobbies .Its very flatness  make painting them a challenge. The fact that few manage to paint them or enter them in competitions is frankly an irrelevence as I doubt most commissioners of flats think about the financial aspects of it  or its place in the market .Its a hobby and seems thankfully to be staying that way .As I dont go to shows or enter competitions the competitive aspect doesnt matter to me.I have won competitons  but for rond boss year ago  . Most producers  plough their own path it seems, disregarding "the market' . Its a shrinking art.I believe.The internet has completely changed most hobbies and now at least you can actually get most items now the easy way .In the eighties the only guy i knew  painting flats was Jim Woodley.I went to Kulmbach to buy what I wanted usually selling my painted flats to pay for the trip.I have no problem with some larger size flats though some of them are very iffy anatomy and quality wise.I just dont think the fact they are popular with some means 30 mm is finished .Its just that most collectors and artists  are probably keeping quiet as they have always done ..mainly in Germany i should think ....incidently one reason I loved flats was the fact that most were high quality with good anatomy .A 28 mm wargame figure stinks on the anatomy front but is popular with thousands so another reason to ignore the bleats of the popularista
Incidentally I do sculpt and produce my own range of 42 mm rond boss figures for motorsport called TRACKPASS MINIATURES So I  am not a complete flathead.

[Glen]

Nick, no offen[c/s]e taken.


If 30mm is dying out, is it because the same old pieces, regardless of quality, are still being cranked out? Time, technology, and, of equal importance, painter's expectations, have evolved over the years. The level of sculpting and metallurgy in rounds has improved dramatically over the past two decades or so. I think the introduction of crisp and highly detailed resin figures forced the metal-based sculptors and manufacturers to seriously up their game. No one is looking back. I can't remember the last time I saw Valiant, IR, or New Hope Designs on a contest table. They may be out of production, but there's plenty in the bottom of painter's closets (trust me...). With the exception of some of the newer Trost releases, I haven't really seen that qualitative increase in the flat arena - in any scale. Additionally, the level of painting skills at shows has also increased dramatically. While it's possible someone could turn a 30mm sow's ear into a silk purse, I don't think they want to deal with the frustration, hence poor participation at shows.


Another thing I've noticed is that while 30mm covers all historical and other genres - fantasy, sci-fi, etc. - the small scale figure market here in the US is solidly in the camp of round fantasy gaming minis. The young (and some not so young) people painting these figures have little or no idea of, or interest in, the Napoleonic era, the Thirty Year's War, or the armies of Frederick the Great. Is that the case in Europe? If so, why hasn't the flat 'industry' tried to make inroads into that market?


Eric, you are absolutely correct about painting and collecting for pleasure. I think hobbies are the one thing in life where it is all about the individual - you paint what you want, when you want, to the degree of satisfaction you want. Everything else is secondary. Also, it's my understanding that Kulmbach is a flat specific gathering. It would seem natural that there would lots of vendors, flats, and collector/painters. Where are they at other shows? Surely flat enthusiasts go to other shows, yes? And X2 - ENJOY IT.


Glen

[Salter]

very  very interesting the comments over what is a Uk issue.Eric is spot on with his comments I wish we had a Kumblach.Unfortunately we have Euro only plus a scattering of local shows that are predominately round figures or Tanks.
So our showcase here is Euro we have 5 classes in 38 or something like.So the 5 classes are essential to show us along with a display in another area of the show.Only 2d were selling flats so if we are to encourage new interest we must make the best use of what is availiable here.Nobody was talking about medals and Glen is probably correct the word to use is promote.
Personally I would love to see a say convention here with no competition but this is probably way off.It will come down to Euro again in2015 with probably the same issues discussed again afterwards.At least we are having the dialogue which is positive.
Dave

[Nicholas Ball]

actually I think my use of words here were a bit confused, like me really!!!

Do you ever feel you are on a roundabout going round in circles, and every time you get off, you tend to step on another!!!     foot in ones mouth also comes to mind!!

what I actually meant was as we are all getting older and our eyesight is not what is was, then we are tending to see larger scales, as they are easier to paint.I certainly need to make an effort to paint 30mm, although once done I get great satisfaction from them.
seeing  them in competitions or at Kulmbach, just urges me to paint more. Hense I am now painting Mohr's  'The Broom Seller'   which I couldn't resist at Euromilitaire

I'll shut up now!!!           NUUUURRRSE!!!

[willie]

Nick don't  worry about it   If they get there underwear in a wedge over it they have plenty of time to pull them out and get over it . I my self did not know that 30 mm where going the way of the DO DO    I bet it you where to ask clubs around the world what they thought or could come up with it will be all different   I look at it this way as long as I can get figures and my wife dose not throw me out of the house or the floor caves in under all the weight of Tin I will keep painting and entering figures   This is what we have to do we have to make people want to take up the hobby of painting flats and make them feel that they are in a very unique hobby Willie

[errant49]

A bug !!!!


I was writing : "particular rules you have to accept if you want to win something; no rules to collect or paint for pleasure
I do not agree when you say 30mm are dying or need protection; just go to Kulmbach and you will see thousands of 30mm flats and hundreds of collectors
About the "paintability" I do think 30mm are not harder to paint than higher scales; tha way and purpose are different; higher scales allows more details which become most important but do not forgive any mistakes; the main purpose of a 30mm is volume first
In competitions I do not feel that special 30mm classes would help; if I remember well the nicest flat which won a gold in the individual figure class was a 30mm (Bonaparte crossing the Alpes); and I can attest it was better than any other big scale in the competition
At last I feel that all those disputes are intellectual masturbation
Just follow your pleasure, collect and paint big scales or 30mm, compete or do not compete, but please ENJOY IT
Eric

[errant49]

As an old collector and painter of flats I will give my opinion about this topic
I would first say that the world of flats cannot be reduced to competitions
Most of collectors do not compete  and many painters do not intend to; competition is particular with particular rules which you have to

[Nicholas Ball]

Hi Glen,

I meant no offence with my comments, anyone who can engrave, sculpt or mould already has the better of me and I appreciate the talent you need to do this.I don't dislike the method, just some of the subjects, which is true of engraved pieces too really!!!

30mm don't get the credit they deserve at shows, but there is usually one or two per show that get awarded medals so we can't complain, but I feel they do need to be painted exceptionally well to have a remote chance.

30mm are dying out, which is a shame, perhaps if they got more popular at shows then engravers would start producing some really nice sets, like Faust, or Casanova.

boobs and butts arn't really my thing modelling wise, but again I appreciate the wonderful painting some of them inspire.

[Glen]

Ooh... feather ruffling. My favorite!


I'm not sure what this is really about now; the lack of 30mm's overall at comps or the lack of medals awarded to 30mm?


Are 30mm pieces lumped in with larger scales/sizes as a single flat class? Will having a separate class/category increase the number of 30mm in the comp or simply result in a table with a lot of empty space? Figure out why 30mm is under-represented first. God knows, single piece 30mm flats are certainly cheap, but compare the level of detail - the paintability (especially for newcomers) - combined with subject and people might feel the need to go larger even if it's more expensive.


Nick, I can see bas-relief and demi-round pieces being in a separate class as they are very close to rounds in their three-dimensionality. I've never considered them as being flat; only the front half of a round. Personally (uh-oh), I don't think their means of production should have anything to do with it. But, I'm a rebel...


Resin versus metal flats is separate issue. I've seen and painted resin flats where the painted relief is every bit as 'flat' as the metal pieces. The increased thickness is on the back side, hence neither painted nor visible. The thickness is there to ease casting and prevent warping. My own sheet plastic base and sculpted putty relief flats are also a case in point. I take great pains to keep them in the realm of flat versus bas-relief. Once they are painted and mounted, the means of production is no visible to the eye.


I would agree that engraving in slate is a skill, but - to me - only a different skill set versus someone sculpting a highly detailed 80mm round figure versus someone doing the same level of detail in a 30mm gaming mini. In all cases, these are learned skills; like painting. Which leads me to...


I've come to realize that painting flats isn't necessarily more difficult; it's just different. The tools, paints, and the mechanics of painting are the same whether you use oils, hobby enamels, or acrylics. Choosing a well engraved, reasonably detailed flat is the first task. Pre-planning in terms of light direction, highlights, and shadows are the second and I find this to be somewhat neglected - even among people who paint flats on a regular basis. Some people try to paint flats like they paint their rounds only to be disappointed. I did that, then started to look at well painted pieces, reading about techniques, and doing some analysis. Instant better. Still not as good as I wanted, but better than I expected.


Dave, I don't think '30mm needs protecting' is the way to go. Protecting implies entrenchment and maintaining the status quo. Perhaps 'promotion' might be a better word  - and strategy. With that in mind, and on the assumption that this is not being done already, display a selection of official BFFS recommended 30mm flats for newcomers to get at the next show. Well detailed and well cast are musts. Show a variety of makers. Show a variety of subjects - various historical eras, sci-fi, fantasy, etc. Tell them where to get them. Show them painted pieces and explain why one piece is artistically better than another. Encourage them to ask questions by registering for the BFFS forums. Promote the flat hobby in general (as you all do already) and the 30mm side in particular, but be open-minded to the individual's interests.


Cheers,


Glen


(Not a collector, unless it's boobs, butts, and battle-axes. Woof!)

[Salter]

Nick
I will let you know outcome of what will be permissable
Dave

[Nicholas Ball]

worth asking, I'm sure room can be found

yes plenty of time. I'm painting up 2 things at the moment!! 

[Salter]

Nick
we can ask Geoff but increasing the number of classes would probably be frowned upon.
As to support this would be done.For example you and brian could fill a table on your own.
If we advise members we have more than ample time to get painted models.Also members must have collections.
Dave