International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society
Flat Figures Painters Forum => News => Topic started by: Brian on April 23, 2017, 07:09:38 AM
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"Prices at Berliner Zinnfiguren are really ridiculous 4.5 - 5 Euro for the mounted figure"
Think we have been here before but lets talk about price, lets look at making a figure
You have an idea, then it has to be drawn, cost can be £150 /£200.
Then off to the engraver and your talking another £250 plus for one stone (each stone will accommodate 2 30mm mounted or 5 foot figures) then we come to casting, tin is around £40 a kg and then you have the casters time.
On top of all this you have post, not to you the collector we have not got that far yet, the moulds again £25 to £50 from the engraver to the caster, another £8 say for the design to be sent to the engraver so it all mounts up.
Lets look at a set, Charge of the light Brigade by Charles King, you are looking at thousands spent to get the figures to the market with no hope of getting anything like that back. so far the set has 10 stones
So are we underselling the figures? YES we are!! but it is a special market we have and the collector has been very lucky with the low price of the quality figures he can buy today and expects low price.
The figures we produce are not toys but the buyer will only pay toy price
Don't get me wrong, I do not defend BZ pricing but we are going to except that prices will have to go up if your going to want new figures. The Collector will have to pay the money!!!
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I will say the quality and complexity of flat figures never ceases to amaze me. It's fine art before they're ever even painted. I think the frustration with BZ is that they bumped up the price of the gottstein sets well beyond that of their normal stock. I assume this is because they're selling on behalf of the Leipzig society and do not own the molds, but perhaps I'm wrong. The Hastings set cost several hundred euros and I'm afraid to see what Assyria and Babylon will cost once the molds have been cleaned. But so be it as it's the only way to get them, and when bits and pieces turn up on German eBay the prices are as high if not higher
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Have to agree Mike, the pricing at BZ is always the highest I have come across, and I have to admit I have never brought from them because of the price.
But after a break down of cost involved are we paying to little for the figures??
I sell figures and sometimes have to reduce the price as it seems far too high! again with Charles' figures we had to drop the true price as we felt embarrassed to get the right %
Jupiter and my own figures are all priced this way so with out big sells we lose big time.
So again are we paying too little for the figures?
Joerg's and my girls £3.00 each is that too little or a fair cost, it has cost us over the thousand to produce!!
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Cost, should this part of the conversation be in another thread, Mark??
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Sure, it might sense to spin this off to another conversation.
This is an interesting conversation overall. Personally I am willing to pay a bit more for first rate casting done by a an excellent engraver - Frank/Mohr. (Granted in the flat world that is not terribly hard but regardless...)
I have ordered from Berliner several times always happily - my major frustration with them is because of the postal costs I cannot afford to do a small order but, must can only do very large orders. However, casting have always been first rate, and beautifully packaged.
Brian's view is interesting as it seems to produce figures more a labor of love than a money making venture.
mark 8)
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Dear all,
yes you are right as for BZ but the main problem is the VAT. As BZ is a professional seller they have to add VAT to their sales. So when an editor or whoever gives a flat to BZ he charges maybe 1,50 for a horseman. If BZ takes an Euro for their profit the figure will cost 2,50 plus 19% VAT i.e. finally 3,00 Euro being the sale price.
As for the Hastings set I don´t know why this set is that expansive.
And yes new flats figures are sold at prices much too low.
Even though there are minor differences, a drawing will cost about 40 EURO and the mould 220 EURO for a horseman so about roughly EURO 260 in all. Casting will cost 0,60 per figure (unless you cast yourself) and so you will have - given a sale price of 2,00 EURO per horseman - 1,40 EURO back per figure.
Easy to find out, you need to sell 180 figures to get the money just back. This is no to be achieved these days. My best selling set - Saxon Garde du corps - sold 110 times during 8 years. So it may take another ten years or so just to get the money back. If this were not a hobby it would be necessary to sell new sets at about 4 to 5 EURO per figure ! There is as far as I know just SEGOM who sells his figures at those price as he still tries to live on selling flats !
Best regards
Alexander
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Hello,
BZ is a professional dealer, he has a shop in Berlin that costs. He has employees and has to pay wages, he has to pay taxes, social insurance, electricity costs, he prints catalogs, all this costs money and BZ has to make money through the figures.
You have the service at home, conveniently in the catalog or on the website, to be able to select and order his figures from different publishers. Service costs just.
And yes, most editors sell their figures too cheaply! They put thousands of Euros in their hobby and get little money back.
Collectors should be happy and do not complain about high prices.
LG Gerald
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Total agreement with last two post, cost have to be covered if you want the figures.
BZ is always singled out but they have to cover cost, post is a bit strange but cost still have to be covered.
"produce figures more a labor of love than a money making venture"
The costing I posted is for a "set" of figures and the chances of a return are always slim, single figures are different there's a chance to recoup the investment, getting a single figure made, first the drawing £35-£50, engraving another £250 depending then you have casting £1.50 each unless you cast yourself then just tin.
So £325 in cost without all the posting, sell the figure for £8.50 so around 40 figures have to be sold just to get your investment back.
labor of love?? yep I think so[attachimg=1]
Friends 1815 sold at £8.50 has made it's money back as it was a BFFS figure
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Interesting.
I tried to start up a business selling flats in the 1970's I think one of the first, my main outlet was the BMSS monthly shows where I had a table to display my wares, mainly Ochel, Hafer and I few odd figures purchased from E Bay., incidentally this is where I fist met Jim Woodley who at that time collected solid figures mainly German items.
The first problem was not the cost of the figures but opposition to the project from the BMSS committee who put many obstacles in the way as they did not want flat figures contaminating their shows. Later they did accept the flats had a place mainly due to the gift of trophies, by then I had stopped trying to sell flats.
The main problems with flats as withal all hobbies these days is that the demographics of society have changed with the introduction of electronic games and the changes in people themselves, collecting is mainly the prerogative of a dying breed and as this section gets smaller and smaller so will the demand for Model Soldiers, Railways and Aircraft until perhaps the collector will disappear completely.
The seller must always remember that without the Public buying their product they will have no business, and they must if they want to sell regardless of the cost price their end product irrespective of what that product is to sell. Too high no sales, to cheap no sales.
For many years I used to sell toys and models at the now defunct Toy Fairs and it is safe to say that when buying or supplying stock about 10 % would sell immediately, another 10% would sell over 3 months and so on, after about a year you would have 30/40% of the stock left, that stock was usually dumped at below cost to try and recover some cash.
Economics are a sad fact of any business but they always apply irrespective of what you sell and how you sell it.
BZ I imaging lose many possible sales as they are expensive but editors sell to them to finance other projects but eventually even BZ will go out of business, it may take years but in reality it will only need a small change in public opinion
Hope that I have not been too dismal but these factors effect business.
Kindest regards
Bob.
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Bob the BMSS stopped the Flats class at their show in London last year so maybe things have not changed to much hahaha
So as has been said the figures are to cheap, so what do the producers do? run to a loss or up the price?
As Bod said to much you will not sell, to little and not only you don't sell but no money for the next project!
We cannot force you the collector to buy our figures but a little feed back would be good to give us an idea of what is wanted (-;
I was told to do the figures I wanted, so the Girls and the Bikes came and I was told there never sell, well they have been a success and more Bikes will be made, Old Triumph's and BSA's this time though, and the girls? Joerg is sorting two more as we speak
But should the prices go up for the figures??? I'm beginning to think so )-;
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I am only a talentless collector but I love the ART of the flat, it draws me in and I appreciate the hard work or labor of love that so many talented people put into this hobby.
There seems to be a bit of pessimism about where the hobby is going, on the positive side, there is now the ability to expose our hobby/art to more people than ever before. the online world is really a wonder and I can tell you that a little slick marketing have made hobbys and product with much less quality and legendary history as ours into frenzied market places, a word of caution, be careful what you wish for or one day you may be yearning for the days when this was such close and personable hobby. ::) food for thought in my humble opinion,
Ray
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Yes, the hobby we are in is in an odd place across the spectrum - figures/planes etc.
We seem to have less and less people going into it, with the requisite worries about lack of participation and buyers and yet we are in a Golden Age of choice and availability with a wealth of options most easily obtainable. (I suppose as hobbyist we are going out in style!)
Given the wealth of good options and well produced figures there should be an option and a price for everyone. If some vendors cost a bit more I personally am willing to deal with it for well produced figures. More importantly I try to purchase a few figures here and there from a variety of vendors hopefully helping them get along as well.
Ray's advice is good - like politics - be careful what you wish for in life. Most things have a hidden price to them.
mark 8)
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The internet has certainly opened up a whole new world for the flat enthusiast. When I first got into the hobby in the late 90s, it was extremely difficult to obtain quality unpainted flats. Now its just a click of a button. Well painted flats at shows and online will always attract new adherents - perhaps not as many as in prior years, but I for one remain optimistic.
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Hello Brian
Thanks for the information I did not know that the BMSS had stopped the flat figure competition, but no surprise, they were never comfortable with them.
Sadly even when you ask people want they want, they will tell you and change their mind within a very short period.
I can appreciate that Editors want to make money but, I still hold to the theory that if you increase the price of flats, and let us remember that they are basically toys, whatever title you give them, you will lose customers. Perhaps not collectors but, newcomers to the hobby who will simply decide the cut off point that they are willing to pay, especially now that the demand on people's money is getting tighter and with the increases in Council Tax, Energy Bills and Travel costs, the surplus expenditure for pleasure will get less and less.
Perhaps you should also factor in the fact that very few wives would happily say "you buy those new flats Dear" I will forgo going to the shops, dinner or seeing a show.
Lots of factors to take into account.
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Dear all,
well I don´t think editors will increase the prices as the price rages established is oriented on the long time existing moulds which have been "paid back" decades ago. Then there are few large scale collectors left, i.e. collectors who bought lets say 10 figures from each set (excl. officer and trumpeter) to build up a "regiment".
Moreover I believe that flats will stay in fashion to collectors. The 1/72 and 28mm war-game figures may be more in fashion today but taste is about to change getting older and once these collectors find out there are lots of flats existing …
For example with Napoleonic era the classic collector starts with the French Old Guard firing but after some years he is searching for Neapolitan staff or Napoleon at Malmaison etc. and he will find out finally there is only one range which offers virtually everything (not literally there are of course some gaps but not so many from an european point of view) - flats.
And some will find out that engraving of flats is close to Art and most flats don´t have a "dwarf appearance" which most 28mm war-game figures have for some unknown reasons etc.
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A very interesting topic :)
Obviously flats are cheap, take round figures, one manufacturer is selling 54mm at £20 with mounted now around £80!!
personally I would be more than happy to pay a premium especially if I really like and want a particular figure.
I suppose Bob, some people would refer to them as toys, but they are pretty nieve!, what with the skills that go into the engraving etc. they are for me, wonderful works of art to be admired, painted or plain. As for those in the BMSS who have taken exception to the flats because they are taking medals
away from them then I feel very sorry for them especially if medals are more important to them than the art!
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Like I said before its what you like ??? Also it is what you can afford and what period you are interested in. :o . This is a hobby not a food race to get medals :P Willie
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As said no one will be uping prices, this was just to outline how much is involved in producing the figures we love, and most of the time the "editor" is out of pocket but will still make the little guys
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My view:
First I agree with the post about Berliner Zinnfiguren. This is a professional seller (the last one in Germany - this is my knowledge).
And I buy sometimes there.
Now my view about the costs of individual figures.
For example a 30 mm flat Napoleon cost € 3,00 or more, because the regular buyer will buy one.
A Grenadier 1812 cost € 1,00. A potential collector may be buy not one, he buys 10, 20 or more.
Please do not forget the cost andt the time for the production.