International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society

Flat Figures Painters Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Brian on July 21, 2016, 04:09:43 AM

Title: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Brian on July 21, 2016, 04:09:43 AM: Here something for you to talk about, it was suggested at a major show at the weekend that all flats should be band from modelling competitions,
it's not modelling you know!!
what do you think?
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Rich Sculpts on July 21, 2016, 04:51:56 AM: Was it a certain plastic kit bashing show? If so just ban the white metal ones ;)

Rich
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 21, 2016, 04:55:17 AM: Actually what he said was ( referring to flats )

"competitions are not about painting skills, its about the modelling"!!! And this from a Chief Judge!!!

So, go out, buy a bust, glue on the head, prime it with a car spray ( any colour will do!!) attach it to a base and hey presto, GOLD

I tend to ignore most ridiculous comments, its just not worth the hassle with these small minded people. but this guy takes the biscuit. it's bad enough from a Judge, but a chief Judge!!!
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Ed Humphreys on July 21, 2016, 05:06:03 AM: So where does he stand on boxed dioramas? I spend at least as much time on settings as I do on figures. All my buildings are scratch built, often with a forced perspective, directing the viewer's gaze to the main focus of the scene. This is at least as skilled as assembling a kit tank and placing it in front of a kit resin building with bought-in accessories. It just goes to prove what we believe about many in the judging fraternity. I did say many, not all, so relax, Gerry
Ed H
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: willie on July 21, 2016, 10:54:06 AM: I think that this guy is a French Fry short of a Happy Meal. He did not mind taking your money to inter the show did they. ED BRAIN NICK GERRY keep on what your doing at shows. Every time we go to shows large or small we spread the word about Flats. Besides don't make me have to let loose the Fly Monkeys on that group. Willie
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: BobLeighton on July 21, 2016, 12:51:09 PM: So if this judge is saying that its not about painting skills, are we to assume that all the items on display were unpainted and all scratch built by the exhibitor.

The few shows that I have been to, all seem to show stock models purchased from a manufacturer and painted, some times very badly.
Very few models are scratch built and even when they are, they are still painted.
So where does this judge draw the line does he discount painting entirely, or only accept those figures that qualify for his attention and merit.
The problem with Judges is that they do not judge to the standard but judge to their own standard, and I have seen really badly completed figures and some armour models win top places, simply because the person judging liked that period.
This is really why I don't attend shows as they are often not judged fairly.
I can remember being at some BMSS monthly shows when Jim Woodley s figures did not even qualify
Every one isf their own judge and if they like a figure that is sufficient.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 21, 2016, 01:36:40 PM: There are no rules; no guidelines; no criteria for selection, no test to veriy the qualifications or correct understanding of a judge used for these shows (most involving paniters and judges from sevaral countries ). All is matter of friendship, blind trust, or 'being known'. Should be apply this in pharmaceutical, car, aircratft matters to evaluate quality of a product, the judges would disqualify them selves quiet immediately for being untrained and unqualified. But this is hobby world of a small community.

It is to the community itself to setup their own régulations for such activity; not difficult, just be willing to do so for correct evaluation, fairness. This "society called 'international flat figure society ' is perfectly fullfilling the profile of such an organisation to setup some simple , clear and useful guidelines for judging flats in international competition. Many members are master painters with experience, contact and across several countries to come in one year time with such guidelines and improve the skills not only of painters, but other judging ther work. Kulmbach should be a deadline to annone and publish such guidelines.

Just need people willing to take this over, not just complaining for absence.

(I think, at least, ... but I am myself still between a novice and confirmed painter ...)
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Roger on July 21, 2016, 02:38:52 PM: Well who was it? Then at least I'll know who to laugh at.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 21, 2016, 03:11:54 PM: No names, it would be unworthy of us.

We are currently creating a list of Judges within the society who are willing to do such tasks.I will be informing societies and clubs that should they like us to help out, then we will :)

Judges within the Society will not be able to enter competitions, must act fairly and without prejudice,discrimination and bias. And most of all must be willing to justify the reasons for their decisions when and if approached by the artists concerned in a quiet and friendly manner.
Anyone who would like to be considered for such a challenging role, please let me know ;)

You do not necessarily need to be a gold / silver medal winner, but you must have a good eye for detail and a fair knowledge of light and shade. Perfectionists will do nicely ;D
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Brian on July 21, 2016, 04:01:04 PM: Hang no a minute, this was not lets bash the judges, it has been know for me to be one!!!
But is the painting of flats modelling? or are they works of art as we keep getting told and should be in a gallery?
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 21, 2016, 04:46:11 PM: Well it all depends on the meaning of modelling? ( sculptors/ engravers excluded at present)

Round figure busts are not many parts or rocket science! head, body, feather in the cap-- 3 parts glued then painted, so is this really modelling? Most 54mm only consist of 6-10 pieces, and nowadays the fit of parts is so good they literally clip together, so surely at the end of the day it is just a painting skill!! Which is why I think flats can be included with the round figures for judging.

real modelling in my mind are the kits with 100s of parts that need to be cut out and glued on, and then painted, but these are catered for in their own classes. Therefore, should a perfectly painted flat be able to beat them for Best of Show- Yes, but the painting must be of a remarkably high calibre with minimal ( if any )mistakes.

I do,however think, that there should be a best of show for figures and a best of show for military vehicles/ planes as this would encourage and cater for both types of 'modelling'.

Wasn't trying to bash the Judges, just the one with the obnoxious view ;)

All good art, whether it be paintings, flats, models, sculpture etc. should d all be in galleries and museums, they are all exceptional things of creative beauty.

They are by definition models, so if it's not modelling, what other category would you put it in?
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 21, 2016, 05:47:12 PM: More and more in (continental) Europe, flats are judged separately from figures, with reason, except some irréductibles gallic shows... and even better in absence of any guidelines explaining the différences between the two classes. A painter of figures becoming judge for a flat will not consider te specificities of a flat, and probably reversely. But painters f both types would be, so it is to be considered when setting up a judges team at a show.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Brian on July 24, 2016, 06:18:16 AM: Had a good flow and it looks like my last post stopped the "talk" on the banning of Flats at shows, but thanks to all who posted.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 24, 2016, 07:33:14 AM: Yes indeed, but what I would think is that this judge is stupid, and is only a judge.

Perhaps he has never seen a flat or never painted one, therefore ha no ability nor is qualified to judge such a artistic work. The decision to include or excude somepieces of art is the responsability of the organizer of the compétition, and the rules he established before. Also the appropriate search and finding for judges qualified for the subjects to be evaluated.

I can perhaps understand that he might have been requested to assess flats, wihout having been exposed, trained or coached to do so. This is another issue related to the appropriate selection of qualified judges. H has just to declare that he is not able to give such judgment for this catégory of models.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 24, 2016, 11:12:22 AM: I don't particularly hold up with the argument they don't paint flats so they don't really know how to judge them! I don't do tanks or planes but I know a good one when I see one and feel confident enough to be able to judge if necessary without discrepancy.

Perhaps some judge on their likes and dislikes etc. But in theory they should look past the subject and judge on the quality. Perhaps some just don't know quality!! ;D ;D

With regards our judging pool Michel, most of those so far interested do both rounds and flats, so no problems there ;)
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 24, 2016, 03:12:58 PM: I've no fear with your judging team, Nick!
I would like to be come one too, but hard to find objective judgment criteria between judges when talking with some = absence of guidelines = individual subjectivity ... as described before
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Brian on July 26, 2016, 08:41:56 AM: OK, we're still on the judging at shows, first we have to decide what is a flat? many shows have figures in the flat class that are nothing to do with flats! traditional flats are cast from slate and have a base so self standing, not what we see today at most shows.
The painting is remarkable and could have come from the art studio but hold no life in the figure, the figures that attract my eye are the one's with movement and flamboyancy in the finish, not the picture book figures.

If you have a guide for judges all this needs to be added which will not work, Nick, Michel and myself could look at a table of figures and we will see totally different winners.

So do a bit of judging on these, some are flats some are not?
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 26, 2016, 09:38:41 AM: oh,oh oh, I will start the challenge, may take a few goes as I keep going back to the figures. Perhaps I should write my comments on paper before hand!!!

right--- back soon
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 26, 2016, 10:03:58 AM: I dont know the # 5, looks like a flat for the two fellows, and a figurine in the center ! No?

And I saw the #2 in painting, but ignore how it is assembled.

You could have added also a Demi Ronde-bosse (half round bosse) like those of Eisenbach or recent large Napoleon bust ...

Good pannel choice however!

You could also added the first Under discussion in 2013 at Sèvres (http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/19/31/59/25/2433-010.jpg)
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 26, 2016, 10:40:09 AM: As Michel said, some are not flat and competitions vary in Europe and here, so I will Judge as such

1

I don't particularly like the Grey he has used as a shadow colour on the yellow, as it kills it a bit, but I cannot fault the painting itself, and we all know that light changes in various conditions. The light direction is spot on and it is an exceptionally well painted piece.

In UK competition Gold in Bas relief class
Europe Gold in flat class

2

I don't particularly like the sculpt, especially the faces, but again this is not the criteria.

Painting is again excellent, when viewed from afar the centre figure protrudes and the rear ones retreat. Painting of the faces could be a bit stronger, but the painting for the style is flawless. Boots could be a bit darker, but knowing photography I should think in reality they probably are.

In UK competition Gold in Traditional Zinnfiguren group
Europe Gold in flat class

3

Basic block painting! 2 tones- with a hint of highlight here and there

However the painting is very good and it could be said flawless for the style. For me it lacks that depth, especially the hair, and compared to the first 2 , it needs that extra highlight to make it pop

In UK competition Bronze in Miscellaneous class ( is it bas relief- just a piece of carved flat resin ??)
Europe Bronze

4

30mm and very well composed, and they do look very well painted, but the photo hasn't done it any favours. From experience I should think it is Exquisite, hard to judge but I will give it the benefit of the doubt

In UK competition Gold in Traditional Zinnfiguren group
Europe Gold

5

painting is a bit bland and colours tend to wash into each other, especially the feathers on the hat. The armour needs to be more pronounced with depth and shine. The basics are definitely there, it does need a bit more work.

6

Exquisitely painted, cannot be faulted except it is not a flat, as we define them.

In UK competition Gold in Miscellaneous class only
Europe Gold

You may not agree with me, but I think I have been fair and honest. Will be interesting to see what others have to say.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Brian on July 26, 2016, 01:29:11 PM: Just a reminder, this is for you all to have a go at, it is typical of what could be on the table.

Gold would be 2 and 4
Bronze I'll go for 3 not a flat but nice paint
commended 1 and 5

6 would have been moved to "Miscellaneous" so not judged in flats

So this is my choice, but then hard part begins! explaining to the owner why no gold this time )-
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 26, 2016, 02:22:47 PM: No.1 commended only? interesting- Go on then what have I missed? :)
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: gerry Larkin on July 26, 2016, 03:54:08 PM: likewise :D
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 26, 2016, 05:13:40 PM: sorry was ready, pushed wrong key all gone, so on word, then dinner , then movie, back to PC, I continue ....
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Brian on July 26, 2016, 05:16:34 PM: See this is the hard part!!
The figure I know well, and is by a good friend and I was trying not to show favouritism that I feel would look obvious, another pitfall in judging, we know each others figures and trying to step away and be objective is very hard.
There is nothing wrong with the figure, I used it as an example to show one of the many difficulties in judging

So going back to a set of guide lines for flat judging it just can not work, you give a set to a figure judge and all your saying is they don't know what there looking at.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 26, 2016, 06:05:00 PM: I don't do favourtism :)
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: gerry Larkin on July 26, 2016, 06:59:22 PM: likewise :D
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 26, 2016, 07:09:12 PM: Here is how I would judge the paintings:

A.   Judgment system:[/b] Look for the flats at the following evaluations

a.   Quality of painting : accuracy of painting, of the details, neat, precise, sharp, presence of dark lines separating colours for distinct view; eyes, face, foldings, treatment of horse, legs and feet, quality of hair painting, …. Score = on 5 points
b.   Colours balance = harmonized or not, desaturated when needed for subject, treatment of shadows with black or tones, use of single colours or nuances Score = on 3 points
c.   Light source : visible and clear to viewer or multiple, all directions making unrealistic or uncontrolled Score on 3 points
d.   Lighting and Shadows: in line with light source or not, use of thrown shadow, reflected lights or not, on the face, in clothes, on the horse. Maximum effect for 3D space feeling lige a figurine Score = 5 points
e.   Tone transition and tone melting : smooth, acute, juxtaposed, unexperienced, absent Score = 3 points
f.   Free hands (if any) : accurate, detailed, repetitive motives the same or at random, inaccurate, … Score= 3 points (or none assigned)
g.   Enhancing or downgradings : these things making the piece better or poorly handled = points additional (positive) or removed (negative); examples
i.   Additional features for decoration
ii.   Partial conversion of the flat to enhance its quality and design
iii.   Very original treatment of light or colours (outside standards was copying others, special lightening unusual, like from the back, from a candle, …)
iv.   Poorly prepare flat, residual visible defects holes, poor gluing (if any), which downgrades the final effect from an excellent painter
Can be + or - 05, 1 or 2 points on total or none if no remark
Sum-up maximum score, sum up points given and recalculate on 20; gold is 18, 19, 20; silver is 17, 16, 15 bronze is 14, 13, 12 (merit) is above 10.

B.    Flats or Not ?? to me resin flats are flats, just instead of casting with metal, it is reproduced from a master also but with resin as we do for figurines also. The material is not the issue, it is the technique of creating a flat two dimensional sculpturing of the subject instead of ronde-bosse (3D), painted n all sides. The ‘demi-ronde bosse’ are flats too.
1.   Is a resin flat initially engraved and reproduced
2.   Is a flat
3.   Is a flat; engraving is done on a flat resin surface (Yvan Durand), and the piece is copied = there are more “flat” surfaces than a classical casted flat, but to be treated for tromp-l’oeil effect as 3D
4.   Is a classical casted metallic flat
5.   Is a flat, but I am not sure the character at the centre is not a figurine?
6.   Is not a flat, but composed of 2 or three thin flat surfaces on which drawing was made without engraving = like a “Miniature” painting even if two surface are juxtaposed. Most of these works are unique pieces classified also as “Creations” in Europe. You seem to consider them as “Miscellaneous” They are similar to canvas painting but on other flat material wood, plastic, metal, box cover, … cardboard ….

C.    Judgments

I transposed the pics on PC to enlarge them a bit for some details as I would look with my eyes at short distance, but no more enlargement than actual flat size !!! on the screen; I also lightened the French riders flat usually saved underexposed to have a fair judgment with a normal light source.

No 1:
•   5/5 for painting quality, accurate, precise, detailed, lining present
•   3/3 for colour tones
•   3/3 for light source = unique, clearly defined
•   4.5/5 for lightening and shadows, perhaps the decorations on back of hat, and horse bag on back of soldier are a bit too bright
•   No free hands
•   3/3 for excellent tone transitions
•   Enhancing = no comments
So 18.5/19 = 19.5/20= gold

For historical flats, one could add also a rating for correctness of the colours used, but I am not sure people still consider this, or are themselves sufficiently acknowledgeable except in specific areas to be able to consider it at 100% without request a certification of uniformology to each judge and all period of the History.
Perhaps consider visible mistakes in the Enhancement section as (negative 1 or 2 points ) downgrading obvious mistakes !!

No 2:
•   5/5 for painting quality, accurate, precise, detailed, lining present
•   3/3 for colour tones desaturated ad good balance is given
•   3/3 for light source = appears unique and visible clearly defined as front upwards to the right in front of flat .
•   4/5 for lightening and shadows, good, present, visible, generally OK, two remarks = the lighening of the left hand is from the left instead of facing to right; and the character behind the others is still too bright for its gun and left hand, and the left shoulder and arm of soldier on his knee of the central character should be more in the shadow of the central body, left side of boot of the central character could be more in the shadow.
•   No free hands
•   3/3 for excellent tone transitions
•   Enhancing = no comments
So 18/19 = 19/20= gold

No 3:
•   4.5/5 for painting quality, accurate, precise, detailed, lining sometimes weak confusing sometimes adjacent colours for distinct separation
•   3/3 for colour tones with some colour spots
•   1.5/3 for light source = appears multiple and very weak, indication either an artistic intention to have no light source, only environmental, or no good control of what and where is the source of the light
•   2/5 for lightening and shadows, weak almost absent on the face, not consistent on the arms, on the masks, neck , best perhaps is he bustier, but not very visible; general feeling is a cartoon rather a 3 dimensional character sculplted by the light .
•   3/3 for free hands = accurate, regular, nice control : remark on the spot on the face = spot? A tattoo? A flewing rimmel ?
•   1/3 for tone transitions = weak on clothes folding, on hair and masks
•   Enhancing = no comments

So 15/22 = 13.6/20= bronze

No 4: (darkness enhanced on PC)
•   5/5 Painting : neat, accurate, readable even at distance, details well given and rich, details on the flag , faces, clothes
•   3/3 Colours : good balance, realistic with the subject
•   3/3 Light: zenithal to left in front of plan, and contrary at bottom
•   3/3 Transition, melting of tones : hardly visible here on 30mm except on horse
•   No visible Free hands work
•   4/5 Lightings and shadows = good overall consistency includes thrown shadows from swords, reins, …visible and consistent also for the horses and their legs, drum . However the horses have very correct shaping of the muscles, but a bit lack of shadow, although a thrown shadow is painted for tools external to their surface (if grey weather, those would be non visible) so small inconsistency, white horses look too ; same for the flag , red coat (officer); fro the hats, lightening not totally consistent with ‘almost’ zenithal
•   Enhances particular:
(+ 1) for the decoration of the grass added on the ground
(- 1) two swords could have been pointed before painting for such swords
Rating = 18/19 = 19/20 GOLD

No 5: Flats perhaps with a figurine in front?
•   1.5/5 Painting: rather rough and primary, single colours no nuance, short in details neat, despite some in the face and the legs, not lining between tones, no distinction between hat and feather on top.
•   1/3 Colours : could have been brighter for that period; the metal is rather poorly represented by a grey, with some white spots
•   1/3 Light : unclear, not understood (spots on weapon from right, face from left, none on clothes, ..
•   1/3 Tones transition, melting (fondus): quiet primary on the legs or none
•    Free hands painting (not used)
•   1.5/5 Lightnings and shadows: some on faces, legs, hands, but not elsewhere, more cartoon painting, some shadows on bottom of hands, clothes, hat, hair, but very shy, top hands in the light
•   Enhances : no
Rating = 6/19 or 6.5/20 = NONE

No 6:
•    5/5 Painting: excellent achievement, detailed, accurate, neat, in particular on the face to attract attention on it, outstanding painting of the skin and face.
•   3/3 Colours : globally well selected for a good effect
•   3/3 Light : clear direction high right in front of figure
•   3/3 Tones transition, melting (fondus): excellent, very smooth, no defect, even skin mark done to render it realistic
•    3/3 It is all free hands painting here as no engraving was done …..
•   4.5/5 Lightning and shadows: overall well achieved, perhaps the left side of the hand too bright for the orientation given to the light and orientation of the fan, in the shadow towards the left, making the hand more remote than actually painted.
•   Enhances : --
Total = 21.5/22 = 19.5/20 = GOLD

This looks complex, but after some training, mutually exchanged, cotation is faster, logged in a column sheet, and if like in Lyon last year, all is loaded on a tablet, calculatikon is not automatically .... and summarized, compared, averaged, ... even used for training purpose to exercise judges agsints experienced judges or painters.
Of course subject toreview and changes, only how I would do after two erercises in real compétitions but sideways.
The last step is automatically in the head .... but details alow to defend rating and explain to the painters the rationales and rooms for improvement, min purpose of these hobby activities...
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: willie on July 26, 2016, 10:56:40 PM: OK Guys enough. I think that you have enough to chew on. Hannibal has some good ideas, Nick , Brain, Gerry also in fact you all do. I would make one suggestion keep it simple. I am not saying that you should not have standards,or give them up. But if you do over kill you have killed the hobby. I am not saying that Judging is bad. This is one of the things you are going to have to work out to get that balance . I think that getting a Gold Sliver Bronze is great, but that's not what I am going to shows for I am going to show my stuff off and learn something new. I know that Judging is hard and yes we should have a flat section at these shows. If some one thinks that flats should not be at these shows, then I will not come to your show, but tell those venders out there that they have lost sales and see what happens. Look I like all you guys and want to see this hobby grow. Willie
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 27, 2016, 12:27:11 AM: I am with you Willie !!

It all comes from Brian say = " If some one thinks that flats should not be at these shows,". We are now far away from his question... and why to make this all, if on people had ever said in one show this? Just exclude that painter shows as a judge and continue the business as it ever went ... (unless this fellow had more influence what has not been explained).

We had an issue last year on banning flats from use because of European legisltations dealing wih the materials , and this is indeed a very threatening issue which would have devastated this hobby and its business.

Lastly, for judging, I gave the extreme, perhaps used somewhat in the past, (I am too new 4 years), but establishing a list of characteristcs of "what to look on a flat" would not be a bad idea for fellows involved in judging their peers if they came one day to be proposed to do so.
And it would also be very useful in parallel to all painters to have their attention turned on the same several aspects of the painting which will be assessed when bringing their work for such hobby competitions.

We all came so very close judgments, using probably similar criteria based on our own experience.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Brian on July 27, 2016, 02:53:47 AM: "I don't do favouritism"

And I'm sure no judges do hahaha

Now can we get back to the question, should flats be banned from model contest, so far I see the flat being referred to as art! this is not helping.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 27, 2016, 04:50:30 AM: Should be more specific to understand the concern:
1) Where was this reported (in the UK, in USA, in Europe, ...)
2) During which occasion ? (a model show of tanks or vehicles, a general show including figures and models, ...)
3) How many times was this show organized before
4) How many flats were present ? Also with or without other figures?
5) Was the remark raised by several people? by participants, during the evaluation?
6) Were there separate catégories for the various models exposed, and figures directly related, or other periods (where no models were presented, like middle age, antiquity,)?
7) was fantastic also presented during ths 'model show'?
8) How was the claim raised ? during private discussion, during judgment? to the organizers of the show

Reviewing this single question on a forum table is useless without context; perhaps just a minor remark of an individual to another participant, so not a big deal. If I aised at Lyon a remark " why should models not be banned from a figurines show? = would this develop a concern of the model hobby towards such show? or on the contrary not be an opportunity to expand, explain the association, on dioramas, combinations, ...

So et us know the context or extend of this observation at this stage
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Brian on July 27, 2016, 05:46:57 AM: Getting heavy!!
1/ UK
2/ Figure show
3/ Many
4/ again many
5/ one comment but it could be the opinion of many
6/ no contest
7/ yes
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 27, 2016, 07:48:42 AM: Simple.

Are the figures created using a mould----Yes
Are Busts, and figures created from a mould ---Yes

Therefore they must be classed as models

Are flats painted to the best of our abilities - Yes
Are Busts, and round figures painted to the best of their abilities- Yes

Therefore it is all Art

Sorted hahaha
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Brian on July 27, 2016, 07:58:13 AM: Phew!!! at last sorted!!
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 27, 2016, 08:27:04 AM: How can this point be addressed by one (chief) judge, if there was no contest at that show?

"Actually what he said was ( referring to flats ) "competitions are not about painting skills, its about the modelling"!!! And this from a Chief Judge!!!

(I ignore the difference in the UK between Chief Judge and judge, as anyone can play one role or another in contests )

Perhaps this judge is still exclusively dealing with figures like the old Airfix characters made of 10 to 25 pieces to be assembled. ( I would guess therefore that this judge is quiet old)
....[ My first acrylic and . only "Model Figure" in 2012 !! perhaps I can bring to that Figure Show still ! It was an outstanding experience after assembling and painting "Model Ships" ]
(http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/19/31/59/25/untitl12.jpg)

But the world has changed ever since.... because today 80% of the figures are moulded in one single piece, like flats,, perhaps two or three, not assembled nor glued, therefore should also be banned, because "only painted" without any assembling or gluing ?

You might explain him these facts and share his strong love for vintage 'model' figures

In (continental) Europe, on shows we separate in contest the figurines which deal with human or animal characters, real or fantastic; and the Models which are are anything else (cars, submarines, tanks, aircrafts, ships, ...) having separate catégories on contest. And there usually have separate judges too (except for juniors, due to the low number of pieces registered).

The distinction is not based on complexity of the device, but its subject !
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Joerg on July 27, 2016, 08:46:59 AM: Wow,

frankly said - coming from the knowledge, that I will never get any reward
in a show, I really appreciate, what I can avoid of concerns,
when I paint and combine my little guys. ;D
And it is all based of ONE opinion......
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 27, 2016, 09:21:23 AM: Well, I blame the Glue manufacturer's, without them everything would be one piece!!! hahahaha

And so m'lud, I rest the case for the defence.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 27, 2016, 03:18:49 PM: When we were in America, it was discussed that the World Expo should introduce flat figure classes as they are getting so popular.
Last night, I e.mailed 2 of the organisers on this, and I have just had a reply from one of them Jim Rogatis.

He says that this is something that has been discussed from time to time at the MMSI Chicago shows, but where worried that by creating a separate category it would slight flats as if it was a lesser art.
Isn't it nice that the organisers of the most prestigious modelling show actually appreciate what we do and are on our side.
I have to congratulate and thank them for their support and consideration :)
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 27, 2016, 04:13:30 PM: Is canevas painting a lesser art too? or Miniatures?
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Mike G on July 27, 2016, 04:14:45 PM: On behalf of the stone figure carvers association of America I am both shocked and appalled
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on July 27, 2016, 04:30:38 PM: Michel, I think you may have misunderstood, the organisers are trying to make sure that flats are shown to be as important as rounds and are currently mixing them in with all the categories to show this.

As the BFFS have now asked them for their consideration to make separate categories, they are now happy to consider it. :)

It's all good ;)
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 27, 2016, 06:59:51 PM: Please apologise, Nick !
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: errant49 on July 28, 2016, 03:23:27 AM: In France we call all that a "gas factory" ;D ;D
Remember it is just a pleasant artictic hobby without any particular stake
Also consider that rules do not always fit well with artictic licence
Eric
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Brian on July 28, 2016, 03:30:38 AM: "gas factory" hahaha
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Salter on July 28, 2016, 03:45:02 AM: The discussion on the ban of flats is very interesting.From a comment at a recent show the discussion has moved to judging and now to World Expo.This is all finebut doesnt address Uk issues.
Most of the local shows in the UK will include a class for flats from say about 12 classes.Some will allow flats in other classes but not many as they are seen as another disipline and should be judged as they are.
This year the BMSS dropped flats which i find really strange.However if you look at the UK most known competition Euromilitaire flats are only allowed in their own classes.At Euro 36 classes are availiable 5 of these are for flats.Two are for Zinnfigure these are are well attended.The next two classes are Bas Relief not so well attended as the commercial availiabilityis minimal.Finallythe last class is for boxed dioramas.Sadly this disipline isnt as popular as it was.Personally this is a bit sad as when viewed they are visually very good.Also at Euro there will not be a trade stand for flats which is a great oppurtunity missed.
In my opinion some of these issues need to be tackled here before you move to other subjects.
Dave S
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on July 28, 2016, 05:23:50 AM: Can't help much, as it seems to be a UK issue.

On the 'continent' Figurines historic (that includes 'civil') and fantastic, then flats separate (more an more). What is missing are dioramas (for figurines) and 'others' or miniatures or bas relief, ... such as the Retuerto & some non engravers works, very nice, but not included in the other three catégories; perhaps we can also name them "Other créations" as these are unique pièces.

Twelve categorie seem excessive to me , but if you multiply classes, we multiply the levels (master, confirmed, novice) which overall lead to the same amount of rewoks, just given on another manner. Yes, I orgot also the "Greens", creactions engraved not painted yet .... as the judgment criteria (non written also) are not on painting, but on the creation itself and engravin technics.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: zinnmartina on August 17, 2016, 10:43:23 AM: A Ban?

Why? What about the liberty of art?

A Kulmbach without flats?
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Nicholas Ball on August 17, 2016, 11:02:45 AM: Hi Martina,

why is good question, unfortunately some people don't like flat figures!!

As I have been told, Kulmbach was always flat figures, but introduced the rounds years ago. Even then, some of the traditional flat guys didn't like that either, so it seems to work both ways.

Art is Art. although most members will know my thoughts on Modern art!!
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: zinnmartina on August 23, 2016, 05:29:14 AM: And by the way I do not have an interest to enter a modelling competition.
I must not run for a so called Price.
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Glen on August 25, 2016, 12:31:07 PM: I've been watching this thread. I'm thinking this is much ado about nothing. One individual makes an off-the-cuff comment and everyone is up in arms. While this person being a judge may have added some weight - however undeserved - to his words, it doesn't seem to have had any effect on the rest of the modeling and figure communities. I have yet to see any original commentary about this on any other modeling site and certainly no one supporting the idea.

I think flats are safe...

Glen
Title: Re: Ban Flats!!
Post by: Hannibal on October 02, 2016, 04:17:30 PM: When reading the site of Eindhoven Scale Model Competition during the competition this week-end, but being on vacation in Sout Turkey, I found very interesting pages available to everyone, which is not existing or available or very rough in any of the other international competitions.

I do encourage you to read them, in particular the jugements criteria for the juges, and classes .... It could inspire a 'guidelines for judging flats' in shows, by Kulmbach 2017 ....

The three guides are attached, in English, Dutch and German.
I am currenty translating them in French for our club, and some French clubs quiet poor in such elements, for possible improvements and uniformization. Can UK and USA also have a look and comments.

I remember also in one club in Belgium, where the judge sheet listing the pieces to be judged by participant and category, was requesting to fill in three columns the three best top pièces in decreasing order, appreciated by each juge as being the best, second and third best on which his evaluation would rate the painter (the best of the three). This allowed after to compare if each judge has the same figure or not, explaining possible variations (when more than one or few pièces are registered fo cours? In most other, general cotation, not defendable, simplistic .... or judges discussin together around each candidate (!!! = concerted judgment ..).

http://www.scalemodelchallenge.com/contest/

Till now it is one among the best defined (can't guarantee being followed ..) set of written rules seen.