International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society
Flat Figures Painters Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Glen on May 25, 2015, 06:35:12 PM
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I noticed on the recently posted pics of the MFCA Show that there was a category 'flat art'. It appears to be smalll paintingson canvas panels or illustration board. There's nothing I could find on the MFCA site that addressed any rules about them. Anyone have the scoop?
Glen
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Hi Glen. I saw those paintings at the show and believe last year also. I have no idea what category the fit into. Willie
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we start finding also such painting in Europe the past three years, "painting on flat surfaces", starting with a girl painted on a US airplane dring WW2 at Sèvres 2012, then red girl bust by a Master painter' on a shiny surface, and also a girl half body on flat surcae cut for contour and posted on backgroud.
This slowly appear and are also not really flats, but miniatures. A new category would appear probaby to join regular painter.
I will try such painting new year on a beer glass to see the reaction. These are free-hands paintings and canevas is not the only medium surface used (yet) ...
Too soon to create a catégory today, but perhaps he lead issue in Europe could accelerat this evolution and replace the job of engravors, but drawing art more directly !!, and various types of surfaces, like wood, plastic, metal, ... and shapes (flat, round, ... or evolve to embossing on a press.
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Well, I understand they're not flats in the traditional sense. I'm just wondering when/how such pieces came about. Somebody had to start it and somebody had to say ok, go ahead and enter it. It seems there's not enough to create their own category. I can see them being entered into 'Painters' for simplicity's sake, but I can also see a case for 'Open' since they are 'scratch-built' in a sense. I can see that they are painted on canvas (either framed or panels) and what looks like illustration board. I can see almost any relatively flat material being used as a painting surface - bark, ceramic, bricks, etc. I'm assuming at this point that the medium is either oils or acrylics, so I'm wondering when oil and chalk pastels or colored pencils might enter the picture. Something else to drive the Contest Directors a bit nuts...
I find the whole thing a bit intriguing, so I have no objections or concerns about it taking hold. We have the Tulsa Show coming up in a few weeks and many of those folks go to MMSI, MFCA, SCAMHS (all big US figure shows), so I'll ask around.
Who knows, maybe the next trend in 'flats' might be detailed drawings printed in a pale gray and colored in... :o
Glen
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Hi
I have always seen the flat as an engraved drawing
Many years ago the club I belong to put on a display and demo at a craft fair.
A couple turned up for a look and the husband was really showing an interest in what we were
exhibiting and asked questions about paints and painting.
His wife ... probably thinking that if her husband takes up this hobby
.... all the household chores ... gardening decorating etc. will fall by the wayside
So she says to him .... Come along dear .... "There is really nothing to it,
After all ...... all they do is colour them in."
So all we do is colour in ... someone else's drawing...... but its how well you do it
is what counts
As for painting on a canvas .... its something I would like to do
and I am sure it has its place
Frank
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It was introduced by some masters painters of good reputation, to whom nobody was enclined to say "this is out of scope" . So is the world today, what is not forbidden is permitted.
I 'll try my beer glass and if rejected use these examples as jurisprendence cases.... Then we can invite great painters of miniatures in the next years too.... and open the exhibitions to a new category.
By the way, have you ever visisted the miniatures room in the Vatican museum ??? a bauty, a saphir, real talents fantatstice at scales we do use today in the 1:72, even less................
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Personnally speaking they are traditional art on canvas. I have no objection to them being entered into competition as they are a great art form, beautifully painted too- but they are not flats.
Traditional flats are painted figures that have been engraved into slate and cast in metal. Semi rond are those created in putty, resin etc.
If I was a judge, I would create a seperate category for them.
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I noticed on the recently posted pics of the MFCA Show that there was a category 'flat art'. It appears to be smalll paintingson canvas panels or illustration board. There's nothing I could find on the MFCA site that addressed any rules about them. Anyone have the scoop?
Glen
I think I can clarify this. There are a number of painters of both flats and rounds that do "canvas" art or "fine art" or "illustrations" or whatever. The slang for this type of endeavor is "flat art" because, except for us weirdo flat painters, the rest of the world thinks of military miniatures and their equivalents as "rounds" or 3-D art.
The purpose of the Flat Art category is to provide a space for those who do this type of art to display their work. It is (as yet) not judged and no awards are given except for praise from the show-goers. There are really no rules. MFCA has been a leader in trying to make the show inclusive of all related artistic endeavors. They have expanded greatly the fantasy category and have a toy soldier display area as well - which is judged and awards given. I think this is a very positive thing for MFCA and for those who wish to show another side of their work besides round figures. Personally, I like the idea and enjoy seeing what shows up. I have documented this for the last few years as part of my MFCA report just to show what is being done. My hope is that other shows may also take the idea and run with it. Any relation to our idea of "flats" is unintended. "Our" flats are a long-accepted part of the over all contest categories. Don't over-think this. :)
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Hi Pat, interesting read my friend!
Its safe to say that MFCA Valley Forge show is the American Version of Euro mil? I guess so? well good on you for bringing this kind of artwork to the for! be it ONLY for display, as I have attended this show, I think display only is a great idea and really shows the public the artist to there full. some nice work there! Cheers Gerry.
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Just to put a little historical perspective on this question. At least from the U.S. perspective. Back in the 80's there was a really neat collection of Napoleonic infantry figures dispalayed at MFCA by a Russian figure painter. At that time figures were very hard to come by in the Soviet Union, so, he cut his figures out of tin coffee cans and painted them. In the same years I know that Ron Rudat displayed a large scale mounted French figure from the "Age of Lace." He told me the figure had been cut out as a silouette and then painted. Rick Taylor has also mentioned in some of his seminars that some of his figures were actually brass blanks cut out on a laser and then he paints them. Since trophy hunting just isn't my thing it doesn't much matter to me how the figure got there just that I got to see it.
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Thanks Patrick. It's a new art form for me in terms of figure show displays (Nick, I wasn't saying they were flats or comparing them to the pieces we see here). I saw some pics of pieces at the MFCA show, then one popped up at ReaperCon early this month (pic attached). As near as I can tell, it's a wooden disk presumably painted in acrylics, and then mounted on a polished wood block. The painter was Jessica Rich. She's well-known in fantasy circles and presumably historicals as well; talent like hers isn't restricted to a single genre. I wasn't aware they weren't judged or eligible for awards.
That said, time marches on...
Cheers,
Glen
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What comes next? Painted easter eggs (some very talented painters in that category.....)? I'm sorry, but a figure or a bust (casted) is o.k., but all other items have nothing to do with a figure show and in my opinion should not be judged in any way.
Cheers
Roland
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I do agree with Roland, my wife is painting flats, but also large canevas ... if tomorrow she reduces the size to somethng smaller, why not bringing them to the figurines exhibitions?
These pieces should be off competition for display only, and perhaps indeed in the future add one category "Miniatures" = paintings on flat surfacs of free- hands characters of sizes not exceeding xx cm (today ? 120mm? or even 1:6 ?).
There is no problem to enlarge the scope of art figures, but classes should be defined, to allow fair comparison and competition between artists.
After all this is also a hobby, not a commercial (painting) activity for profit fighting (yet !!), even if some do it so occasionally.
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Well, so far it seems that the numbers being entered are not sufficient to warrant separate categories and they seem to be 'display only' at this point. I do see that changing over time. I can see them initially being entered in the 'Painter' category if they become eligible for awards. There is a valid argument for entering them in 'Open' since they are essentially scratch-built. I'll leave that argument for the philosophers...
Putting a size limitation on the entries is a good idea (the pic I added below is about a two-inch/5 cm disk), otherwise things could get out of hand. I'm not sure the under-surface is relevant. People get creative, so painting on canvas, illustration board, wood, ceramic, stone, and yes, eggshells, would all be fair game. What would be relevant is the subject matter - people. Historical, sci-fi, fantasy, civilian, cartoon, comic, etc. - people.
I think the best place for them (for the moment) is the generic figure show: SCAHMS, MFCA, MMSI, etc., as well as the equivalent British/European shows and the World Expo. After all, they all have Ordnance categories for aircraft and armor, and Diorama categories which can be people, machines, or both. I think genre specific shows, such as Kulmbach (?), would probably opt out.
I think I would like to take a crack at one of these - and I know just the person to ask. I have Jessica's email addy...
Glen
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Thanks, Larry. I forgot about those figures you mentioned. I think the point is that they are - for now - displays. However, if they were to be judged, they would be judged under the open system -as is everything else at MFCA - so they would not really ever "compete" with our figures. Personally, I prefer displays over competitions. My local club has one display a year and it is always a success. For me, judging just interjects discord into what should be a joyful event, but I know many other disagree.
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Well, I got the lowdown... The piece is painted with Reaper acrylics over Tamiya Fine Gray spray primmer over gesso on a wooden disk. There was no concept art or drawing on the disk. She roughed out the outline using paint (!), then filled it all in using the mental image in her head ...her mind's eye.
The eye in my mind needs glasses...
To be continued.
Glen
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Hello Glen,
I think it´s a good erercise to paint something on a wood disc.
Some years ago I saw nice paintings on wood for the backgrounds of 30 mm flats dioramas.
For example I think about a medival scenery with a castle on a background of wood.
And in the foreground some hunting 30 mm flats ...
Best regards
Michael
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Well, if I could paint like that, I would never touch another engraved flat! I'm very jealous of people with such talent...which includes you, Glen. :)
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:o :o :o Patrick!!!! I'm can't believe you said that!!! go and wash your mouth out with soap, this instant!!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Now boys, there's plenty of room in the playpen... ::)
Glen
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An interesting conversation. I think any type of military/fantasy etc art is good to have on display at an exhibition. As far as "in competition" goes, that is the decision for each exhibition to make.
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Very true!
Patrick, could you tell us about your club display show? The usual whos, whats, whens, wheres, and hows.
My club - The North Texas Figure Club - doesn't put on its own show, but we do help out (or try to) at the local LoneStar and ReaperCon shows. NTFC members cover pretty much everythingin the figure genres ranging from 30mm gaming minis up to large scale resin anime/manga pieces with all of the various scales and subjects in between - historical, sci-fi/fantasy, radio, TV, an film characters, etc. We're either very open minded or we can't stay focused...
Glen
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Glen, with Patrick I was referring to him saying about giving up painting engraved figures ;)
Flat art is very exceptionally important to us, it's where we get most of our inspiration for the engravings in the first place. :)
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:o :o :o Patrick!!!! I'm can't believe you said that!!! go and wash your mouth out with soap, this instant!!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Mrufhhfhfh ....furhtw...... burble...blajh. :) :)
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Very true!
Patrick, could you tell us about your club display show? The usual whos, whats, whens, wheres, and hows.
My club - The North Texas Figure Club - doesn't put on its own show, but we do help out (or try to) at the local LoneStar and ReaperCon shows. NTFC members cover pretty much everythingin the figure genres ranging from 30mm gaming minis up to large scale resin anime/manga pieces with all of the various scales and subjects in between - historical, sci-fi/fantasy, radio, TV, an film characters, etc. We're either very open minded or we can't stay focused...
Glen
My club is an IPMS modeling club which has attracted over the last 20 or so years a variety of interesting sub groups -one of which is figures. We have car modelers, ship builders, aircraft modelers, tank modelers, civilian truck and commercial equipment modelers, and more. We have built up a connection with the Bradley Air Museum near us in Connecticut. Once a year they invite us to display our work as an attraction for their "open cockpit weekend." They give us a big room, and we display all the above examples of our craft.it is a chance to reach out beyond modelers and painters to folks who have never seen what we do. The "figure guys" - so called - usually each pick a theme and bring figures to support that theme. The last few years we have brought toy soldier dioramas on various themes as an adjunct to our painted work. This has been very well received, and we sometimes get new members who want to do it for themselves. I like to display my figures, answer questions and discuss history with those that show up.I've met some pretty amazing people and given them a look at something new to them.
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Thanks Patrick.The two IPMS groups in the DFW area have a few figure painters, but not many it seems. There is also a separate IPMS car group. We have an impression that there are more figure painters in the Austin/San Antonio and Houston areas. Maybe OKC/Tulsa as well. IPMS shows here are heavily into aircraft and armor and it shows in the vendor participation. That's the way IPMS generally rolls now.
Years ago, we had flirted with the idea of having a figure show (comp, vendors, displays, etc) and we were even offered seed money from MMD/Squadron at the time, but it never came to anything. The vast majority of the NTFC membership was against it. We have had an NTFC-specific display at the local library. They have large glass wall display cases and we were able to put in a wide variety of figures, building/painting materials, books,and modeling magazines. We kept everything PG-13, but at the last one, one older gentleman, looking out for everyone else's welfare, demanded the library pull a 15" anime piece of a gal wearing a mask, black corset, and thigh-high boots. He had no objection to Waffen-SS... Personally, I think a simply 'display only' show would not work out even if it had vendors; the local modeling mentality just doesn't seem to support it. Nevertheless, it might be time to revisit the issue.
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Thanks Patrick.The two IPMS groups in the DFW area have a few figure painters, but not many it seems. There is also a separate IPMS car group. We have an impression that there are more figure painters in the Austin/San Antonio and Houston areas. Maybe OKC/Tulsa as well. IPMS shows here are heavily into aircraft and armor and it shows in the vendor participation. That's the way IPMS generally rolls now.
Years ago, we had flirted with the idea of having a figure show (comp, vendors, displays, etc) and we were even offered seed money from MMD/Squadron at the time, but it never came to anything. The vast majority of the NTFC membership was against it. We have had an NTFC-specific display at the local library. They have large glass wall display cases and we were able to put in a wide variety of figures, building/painting materials, books,and modeling magazines. We kept everything PG-13, but at the last one, one older gentleman, looking out for everyone else's welfare, demanded the library pull a 15" anime piece of a gal wearing a mask, black corset, and thigh-high boots. He had no objection to Waffen-SS... Personally, I think a simply 'display only' show would not work out even if it had vendors; the local modeling mentality just doesn't seem to support it. Nevertheless, it might be time to revisit the issue.
...Somehow, they never do!!! :)
My club is not too much gung-ho IPMS. We judge all but 2 of our model categories using the open system, and we find that even the hard-core IPMS-ers are willing to take home an open system award (which they might not have earned under IPMS rules)!
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OK, back from the Tulsa Figure Show. Patrick, it would seem your club is in a minority where the open system in concerned; the local groups here are dead-set against it. Most others are as well. I think the Houston group might have experimented with the OS vs 1,2,3, but I seem to recall the local figure group doing the judging. Not sure what their current status is.
I addressed the issue of a display only show on the drive up to Tulsa. The concensus was to ride the fence for the time being, so I guess more investigation is in order...
Marko... why was my 4 June post edited by you? And why was the type so small as it is in Patrick's quote? Were there some glitches?
Cheers,
Glen
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Yes Glen, it had the small font set which I corrected.
mark 8)
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OK, but when I looked at the last line yesterday (Iwas away all weekend), it was in an unreadable micro print. I edited it back up to the same size as everything else. Weird... I also noticed that when I cut/paste text from one area of a post to another, the font size will also change. Changing it back to the original usually results in visible coding before and after the change. Sometimes the fix will take, but often I have to re-type the new lines. This has been going on for the ages now.
Salud
Glen
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OK, back from the Tulsa Figure Show. Patrick, it would seem your club is in a minority where the open system in concerned; the local groups here are dead-set against it. Most others are as well.
That's been our experience as well. Hard Core IPMS-ers want 1-2-3. To each his own. We have gone our own way and never looked back.
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The open system is so much fairer,not only to the Judges,but also the modellers. I also think it encourages them to display their works and most important,to turn up at shows.
when you have a table of 50 figures plus, how can you say there is only one Gold, one silver etc.!!!!
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Nick, it's not a Gold or Silver in the Open System sense; it's more a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place finish. Like racing. There may be 50 models in an IPMS category - say 1/48 Scale Single Engine Fighters - Axis. Each model competes with every other model in the category and the judges' job is to pick the best one of the 50, then the 2nd best, etc. They usually do this by looking for flaws. The better the competition or skill sets, the harder it is, so it's easy for them to get bogged down in minutiae. The down side is that only three models place, while the other 47 simply go home. The advantage of the open system is that of the 50 models there might be 15 meeting gold standard, another 18 meeting silver, and another 17 meeting bronze. The models don't compete against each other and the builder/painter is rewarded accordingly.
To each his own...
Glen
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Well said, both Nick and Glen!
I've judged at IPMS events, and the 1-2-3 system encourages fault-finding not rewarding skills demonstrated. Whatever its appeal, however, IPMs sticks to it like grim death. We have won some converts at our shows, but apparently their comments go unheaded. Still, to each his own; and if the IPMS-ers are happy with their system, that's fine with me. The world is big enough for us all.
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Well, the 1, 2, 3 system has been around in human contests for ages. Its use in modeling contests predates the open system by many years. The IPMS is simply following their traditional ways and means of judging a contest. Following tradition has also been a constant in human endeavors. There is some irony there... ;)
In other news, I'm still pursuing my flat art idea. I'm going with a glam pin-up girl in part profile and fluffing her hair (probably red), but I'm not sure how I want to treat the background - plain color, clouds, flowers, something Mucha-esque? My imagination seems to be failing me here. Probably need a beer ...or two.
Oh, and my Steampunk Girl flat (the one holding a pistol by Trost) got a gold at the Tulsa Figure Show. Ya just can't lose with red hair, freckles, and wavy eyelashes. My scratch-built Elf Pin-up picked up a silver. My 45mm Napoleonic pin-up girls (Prussian Hussar and the French Infantrie Legere got best Napoleonic subject. To be honest, there were other, and better, Nap pieces there, but I think the award sponsor was gong for the avant garde, the unusual, etc., instead of the usual - 'Oh look! A British guy in a red coat and a French guy in a blue coat! I haven't seen that since I was on the other side of the display table!"
Glen
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Hallo Glen,
I only paint my flats for fun because I can´t paint them in a competition quality. I´m not an artist like M. Taylor
and I´ve not the patience to paint on a flat for weeks.
So I´ve never take part on a competition and I think I can better sleep without the problem of medals.
But I like to visit the competitions in Kulmbach or Ingolstadt. I don´t envy the painters walking nervous
around with sweat on their foreheads...
Best regards
Michael
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Well, I understand that Michael. I never paint for comps. I don't cherry-pick pieces for there potential to win a medal. I only paint what I want, when I want, to the degree of satisfaction I want. That's the whole hobby aspect of painting miniatures. I often think the people walking around nervously sweating the outcome have lost sight of the fundamental purpose of a hobby - mental and physical relaxation. OTOH, people relax in different ways...
The value of comps, whether you enter or display only, is that you get quick feedback on what you're doing from a variety of different skill sets and intrests. I suppose there are some who are perfectly happy with what they've done and have no desire to improve, but most folks would like to see their technical skills get better over time. Color selection, blending, highlighting, shading, etc. Painting girls that look like girls instead of girls that look like men with breasts and long hair, for example. Comps help do that. For me at least.
Prosit,
Glen
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I agree Michael & Glen this is a hobby not a mania. :P If you let it become a mania then you are trapped no matter what you do Models, Figures Collect Books and in the end its not fun any more :-[ Willie
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Says the guy with a bazillion books... ;D
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Personally, each painting should bring some improvement on the previous. Lie a sportsman, a music player = progress, learn from the past to make next better; competing is get a recognition from mairs that we move forward; the most interesting part in the exhibitions and cp^s is to speak with better painters and learn why we are not ourselves at the top, and what is missing to get there .... Then integrate these suggestions in the next paintings.... slowly, step by step.... and revalidate....
That's the hobby and the challenge !
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Glen that's a bazillion one ;D Willie