International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society

Flat Figures Painters Forum => News => Topic started by: Joerg on May 18, 2015, 02:33:41 AM

Title: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Joerg on May 18, 2015, 02:33:41 AM
Dear friends,

last year paint with cadmium, this year tin figures in general:
Our Big Nurses plan to save us from our beloved wasting of time....

More precise:
EU plans to forbid use of lead in any products, that may could come in the mouths of little children.
By now tin figures are not on the list of excemptions (angling supplies or diving belts are)

If we will not succeed in bringing tin figures on that list, we can come in troubled sea.....

just for explanation:
Casting flat tin figures without lead is not possible at all. (Well, perhaps it is, but then your figure will break with the slightest bending ..)  :-\

KLIO has made her statement by now; I think I will do so separately.
Time for statement runs out by June 11.

Regards
Joerg

 
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: errant49 on May 18, 2015, 03:06:02 AM
I often wonder why these people from the EEC loose their time with such questions
Don't they have anything else to do ?
How can we act against this stupidity ?
Eric
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Brian on May 18, 2015, 03:38:06 AM
Well what can I say, Klio has shown the way so we have to support with a statement from the BFFS  >:( >:(

 
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Joerg on May 18, 2015, 03:47:22 AM
KLIO wrote me as follows
Sie [KLIO] hat dabei auf folgende Gesichtspunkte hingewiesen: Zinnfiguren sind ein Jahrhunderte altes europäisches Kulturgut und dienen seit langem nicht mehr als Spielzeug, sondern als Sammelobjekt, weshalb sie auch nach EU-Recht nicht als Spielzeug gelten. Zinnfiguren benötigen zwingend den Zusatz von Blei, da andernfalls keine Wiedergabe der Reliefgravur möglich ist. Auch für den Fall, dass sie von einem Kleinkind in den Mund genommen werden sollten, besteht keine Gefahr eines anhaltenden Lutschens. Es wird daher beantragt, Zinnfiguren in die Liste der Artikel aufzunehmen, die von der Richtlinie ausgenommen sind.

KLIO pointed to the following: Tin figures are a European means of Culture (Kulturgut) and are since long no toys but collecting items.
Therefore they are no toys according to European regulations.
Tin figures need the addition of lead, otherwise casting of fine engravings is not possible.
Even for the case, that a little infant takes a figure in his/her mouth, a danger of sucking is not given.
Therefore we apply for include tin figures in the list of  articles, that are excludes from the Guideline. 

.... Für den Herausgeber größere Bedeutung hat die Unmöglichkeit, Zinnfiguren anders als mit einer Bleibeimengung gießen zu können. Daher würde eine Untersagung einem faktischen Berufsverbot gleich kommen. Demgegenüber treten für den Herausgeber die kulturhistorischen Aspekte in den Hintergrund. Entscheidend ist jedoch, dass die Forderung gestellt wird, Zinnfiguren nicht mehr unter Ziffer 2.3.1 aufzuführen, sondern diese unter die vom (beabsichtigten) Verbot ausgenommen Artikel unter Ziffer 2.3.2 zu subsumieren.

For editors it is important, that it is impossible to cast tin figures without lead.   Forbidding of lead would be an occupational ban.
(With or without aspects of cultural history).

Crucial is to have tin figures no longer at point 2.3.1 in the list, but in point 2.3.2 (exemptions).


Contact person:

EU:
ECHA EUROPEAN CHEMICALS AGENCY, ANNANKATU 18, P . O . BOX 400, FI - 00121 HELSINKI FINLAND

BRD:
BAuA Bundesanstalt für Arbeitsschutz und Arbeitsmedizin Friedrich-Henkel-Weg 1-25, 44149 Dortmund

Reference:         Draft guideline on the scope of the upcoming amendment of Entry 63 of Annex XVII to REACH on: Lead and its compounds in articles supplied to the general public that can be mouthed by children.
Name:                                 Lead and its compounds
EC Number:                       231-100-4
CAS Number:                    7439-92-1

Following the link

http://echa.europa.eu/addressing-chemicals-of-concern/restriction/calls-for-comments-and-evidence/-/substance-rev/7902/term

you find „give comments“, where you can type your comment directly in a sheet of hearing ECHA .




(all humble translation by me. I am sure, there are members, who could easily correct my mistakes.)
Joerg
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Brian on May 18, 2015, 04:00:11 AM
Tell your committee what you as collectors want, follow Klio and press for an exemption on "our" tin figures, or just let them be band and find an alterative material ?

 
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: errant49 on May 18, 2015, 04:20:02 AM
We BFFS have to do something
Brian please be our speaker
I will see what is going on here in France
Eric
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: alfsboy on May 18, 2015, 06:46:01 AM
I suspect everyone will just ignore it all ......like cellulose paint .Just claim it as a heritage  item .....maybe .I make lead /tin figures and will ignore it completely and if caught will claim senility from lead poisoning  and large usage of cellulose paint  ;D
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Michael_43 on May 18, 2015, 08:59:23 AM
Hello friends of flats,

there are other bad examples from the EU like the banned bulbs or the power reduction of vacuum cleaners.
Then there are plans to prohibit private pet ownership like cats and dogs.
People maintains them since the stone age; but there is a big lobby of the pet industry.

We collectors of flats have not such a big lobby. So I think the BFFS must write a statement against those strange
plans. We don´t want to collect illegal flats of castings outside the EU...

Best regards

Michael
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: willie on May 18, 2015, 09:58:31 AM
Shades of the 60s Britain's goes from lead to plastic that was a flop.  :(   Look this is nothing new :o , First of all if you let your rug rats eat the paint on you soldiers or in the house that's your problem not mine >:( I don't need a Nanny state to tell me how to live or for that matter what to paint and what paint to use. You know I amaze my self, that I have lived this long. I have been bucked of horses, kicked by them, various animals have tried to have me for lunch ???  snake bite, fell off a cliff and chipped my ankle chasing a 500 pound female ::)  As for the military we are not even going there ::)  These people need to get a life >:(  Look you are talking to a guy who has survived 6 women in his life 5 daughters 1 wife and I think I am wining on that front and if you want them I will be glad to send them to you ::)  So now I am going to go drink some Brandy smoke a cigar ride my bike drive my truck and go fly, go to the gun range and shoot and look at beautiful women 8)  If the EU EPA does not like are hobby they will fine something else to cry about  :'(  Willie
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Brian on May 18, 2015, 10:18:45 AM
Anarchist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 :D :D :D :D ;)
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Michael_43 on May 18, 2015, 10:43:03 AM
Hello,

we only need some lobbyists in Brussels and then Brian will get a subvention for every mould he let engrave  ;D ;D ;D

Best regards

Michael
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Charles on May 18, 2015, 12:01:51 PM
Willie, I'm intrigued by the 500 pound female you were chasing. That has got my imagination going!!


Brian, yes I think we should send in an objection. It can't do any harm, can it.
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 18, 2015, 12:35:04 PM
C'est scandaleux, car on laisse passer les OGM, les armes, les balles, la cigarette, le tabac, les pesticides sur TOUS nos légumes, on légalise les drogues, on va bientôt nous imposer la viande hyper bourrée de médicaments venant des USA, mais le plomb dans des figurines de collection ??? ? serait nocif pour ingestion par nos enfants ???
Y a t-il des statistiques sur le nombre d'enfants empoisonnés par les plats d'étain dans la communauté européenne? 
Il faut exige la publication de ces faits de leur part, par an, par pays, sur les 25 dernières années pour justifier cette mesure!!!
 
C'est énorme, incroyable.  Ces gens sont des fous à faire enfermer. Ils sont nocifs à notre société et en suivant leurs arguments ils faut donc les interdire et les éliminer aussi?  Ils ne savent même pas ce qu'est une figurine et un plat d'étain !!
Honte à l'Europe
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: böckchen on May 18, 2015, 01:11:44 PM
Yes with such things because I wonder too ....!
These people have had a difficult childhood and she suck a pacifier musten of tin and lead figures? If such a result comes out, who protects us veranwotlich against stupidity some politicians in Brussels?
 >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Rise of the collector

Attacks in the keyboard your computer and demomtiert, that you even tomorrow and collect tin figures buy Dared.
 ;)
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 18, 2015, 02:45:00 PM
Sorry for my reaction one hour ago, but human being can also show how stupid he can be on this earth!!  I agree to ban nocive substances if they are proven to be nocive for the community, by facts and figures, and no if other alternative is available.  Labelling can be one way to informe users to avoid mis-use (at least according to laywers only!!)
Cigaret and Tobacco are the first to be banned, but the lobbying of tobacco industry is so rich and powerful that as all human beings are sensitive to corruption, no one is strong and honest enough to say NO to the industry !!.  because Tobacco IS NOCIVE and must be banned.  Cadmium and lead, yes in specific usages and circumstances can be nocive, but they are natural substances, like uranium is, although highly nocive, but not banned.  However we cannot disinfect our obsolete nuclear plants today !!!  Look at Japan !!
The advantage Europa has over USA, in my career in the medical and pharmaceutical industry is that Europe has scientific sounds and thinking, while USA is stupidely focused on paperworks and principles.  So decisions in Europe in these fields have proven to be much better validated and supported.  Just look how OGM's have ben proven to be safe, this is really so poor, non scientifically done and misoriented !!! that I personnally find them very unsafe and dangerous as their safety, never demonstrated by long term studies on immunity, only pushed by industry for profit making. 
Therefore please request for the European people at Brussels to provide all the data making lead in tin figures so nocives to be included as a banned product as said before = number of reported cases of ingestion, poisening, by country, by year, even hospitals, over the past 20 years and not just a theorical thinking in the air, or dream as these people could do in their luxury environnent.  How many cases they have theselve watched, testimonies they have received, complaints, on poisening, deaths, caused by ingestions of flat figures   Question them on what is a tin flat figure even !!!
Science is based on facts and figures, everything else is religion, faith, dreams, hopes, not acceptable here as suppporting argument to setup lawas and restrictions = this is called dictature, nt democracy !!
 
Cadmium and lead are not safe substances, but sugar also is not and any drug, or even natural substances, if used ecxcessively and in uncontrolled conditions.  Adding "Tobacco can kill' on cigaret package is not an excuse for industry t sel cigarets, it is a criminal act !! intended to KILL people against money, but no government would act against this because lobbying spend billions dollars to "buy" the legislaters to accept these poisons.  Tin flats figures don't have the billions euros to spent to corrupt our legislators on the same way, and these legislators ignore even what a flat tin figure is, for what purpose, by who it is used.  They just live in their world, closed, aseptic, reacting only to theory, not to practices.
This what makes me so disappointed and reacting. Sorry but animals don't behave so stupidely !!
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: marko on May 18, 2015, 03:41:23 PM
Hannibal no worries.


It is always dispiriting when the Government decides to help regulate something you are passionate about, normally for the worst it seems in the modern age.


Here in the US we are famous for things like the warnings - "Ladders should not be moved when occupied" -  "Do not operate blow dryer while in the bath tub" - "Vehicle should only be driven from the drivers seat" to a variety of scary things which are not for internal consumption.  One of the latter is certainly Tin Figures.


Sadly no government seems to realize you cannot legislate safety to morons so hopefully they will find some reasonable middle ground on this. 


mark  8)

Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 18, 2015, 04:02:18 PM
vehicles should only be driven from the drivers seat!  tell my wife that, and my Mother-in-Law, she's even more talented, she  drives from the back seat !!!!  :o    ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I will knock up something tomorrow and send on behalf of the Society.  :)

Why do some people ( politicians ) make life so complicated?
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: willie on May 18, 2015, 07:20:17 PM
 Its called job security and politicians and people who work for them love it :P  As for lead flying at you I had that happen to me when I was in my twenties in South East Asia  :o  I can not say I did not throw some back.  I call these people thick skulls full of mush :P  and then there are the morons who I believe have united all over the world. Nick I agree on the vehicle statement ::)  Look guys these people look at us as stupid hay seeds and they want to help us it makes them feel good about themselves and they don't understand that I myself do not want there help >:(  You know I meet this young women once who told me that anyone without a PHD could not be a historian or a writer . Well I told her I had two PHDs and her eyes got big and where did I get them from. So I told here they where Post Hole Diggers ::)  and I got them from Home Dep. So Hannibal don't let them get to you feed them hot dogs ???  Now as for the 500 pound female. Will I was out in Yellowstone chasing a female Griz and her cubs to move her to another part of the park. Well my right foot found a Prairie Dog hole always happens when I am chasing females ::) Wille
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Brian on May 19, 2015, 04:09:26 AM
I have posted a comment to the ECHA asking for tin figures to be exempt from the ban.

Follow Joerg's link and say your piece, BFFS will also have a "say" posted to support an exemption for tin figures later.       
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 19, 2015, 08:24:50 AM
I have just put in an objection/exemption to ECHA on behalf of the British Flat Figure Society as an International organisation :)

Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: willie on May 19, 2015, 09:12:04 AM
Great Job Nick. So what's the war game people say about this? As for back seat drivers I think we should get combat pay ::)  Willie
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 19, 2015, 09:34:39 AM
 
-----Original Message-----
 From: tbeier-sankt_augustin@t-online.de [mailto:tbeier-sankt_augustin@t-online.de]
 Sent: 19 May 2015 11:01
 To: michelbrasseur@skynet.be
 Subject: AW: Mail von der Klio-Webseite


Dear Mr. Brasseur,

thank you for your mail. KLIO - the German collectors society did already sent a comment to ECHA on the matter (see annex). In adddition to this we gave the news to quite a number of german producers of flats in order to act accordingly.

Kind regards

Thomas Beier
Präsident KLIO

-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Mail von der Klio-Webseite
Datum: Tue, 19 May 2015 00:32:51 +0200
Von: michelbrasseur@skynet.be
An: tbeier-sankt_augustin@t-online.de

Nachricht von: Michel Brasseur
IMPORTANT and URGENT for action to Brussels European institutions before 11 June 2015 !!

Thank you for your input send to European authorities at Brussels before 11 June 2015 by your company

I think you and other German manufacturers of tin flats should sent comments to European comission befire 11 June 2015 ....!!

http://www.intflatfigures.org/index.php?topic=2098.msg13355;topicseen#new
http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/t14585-interdiction-du-plomb-dans-les-figurines#301199

from Michel Brasseur
Fan of flats in Belgium
 
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: nmrocks on May 19, 2015, 10:54:45 AM
Really the key behind Tobacco's success is the taxes it generates for the govt.
Obviously they are not making enough money on Lead.
Ray
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 19, 2015, 01:57:39 PM
or rather gouvernements and industries care more on profit than on safety of human beings!
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 21, 2015, 07:47:03 AM
for automatic translation on internet .....
http://www.figure-mad.com/smf/index.php?topic=4659.0 (http://www.figure-mad.com/smf/index.php?topic=4659.0)
 
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 22, 2015, 04:54:51 AM
I have had a reply back from ECHA. Apparently they have been investigating this process since 2013, but did not receive any comments for lead containing figures!!!   did any of you know this was being investigated????

Now this is where logic goes out the window!!

If these figurines were used purely for Museums or  exhibitions then they would then be automatically exempt, however as these can also be sold to collectors, which they broadly consider as  'consumers',  they believe that these items could be found in a household, in proximity of children ( if left on a table by accident!) who then might eat them!!!!!

I also fear that because people have been saying they are using them for wargaming, again children could get hold of them!!

They have in all fairness said they would like to explore these fears further with me, so I will reply as best I can.  I will be looking at exemption obviously

Nick

The date of this to come into effect is June 1st 2016
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 22, 2015, 09:30:41 AM
I recommend you keep Klio informed on progress, as this is for them in Germany a major business. See my emails earler with their Président.
 
Best Regards
Michel
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 22, 2015, 10:19:09 AM
I expect a reply early next week, I will keep you all informed.

I have also mentioned that if they are that worried about small people putting dangerous items into their mouth's, then perhaps they should consider banning knives and forks!!  :o    If in 2 years time, we are all having to eat off of spoons, and choking on large lumps of meat, you will know who to blame!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D   

on a serious note though :-

I have also invited The Scientific Officer - Risk Management Implementation ( and his colleague's ) to visit me at Kulmbach
( should they want ) so that they can fully understand what these figurines are, how we display them and to discuss with everyone there the worries we all have for the future should this regulation be implemented.  I have also sent him a few photos of some of my work in preparation.

I hope this is acceptable to you all.

Nicholas
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: willie on May 22, 2015, 11:43:16 AM
 That sounds great thank you 8)  Willie. Now what about that combat pay for back seat drivers
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: errant49 on May 22, 2015, 03:26:49 PM
Nick I will suggest you become a european deputy  :D, if ever Great Britain does not leave Europe  ::)
Anyway you are doing a great job
Eric
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 22, 2015, 04:46:22 PM
Thanks Gents, at least we've made ourselves known.

 I think we have a good argument and I just hope the Scientific Officer agrees.




Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 23, 2015, 02:45:40 AM
Nicholas,
It is a excellent initiatve to invite the  Scientific Officers - Risk Management Implementation at Kulmbach, although accessibiloties of the flats to the crowed public might be sensitive.
I have practice risk management in my career in the medical field, and argumentation is the best way to convonce people, faced with reality and the world of flats. Try to bring along anlso représentatives of this business like Klio, some engravers and producers, and if necessary to rent a business room in a nearby hotel for a open table discussion during that visit, inviting key partners from various coutries. Suggestions on warning labelling is a route to suggest on the products, if needed.   Actions necessary to preserve this art and activity is very important to many of us.
 
Michel
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 23, 2015, 07:59:35 AM
Me again, Nicholas
 
On the french site , excellent point was made, remembering me my 20 years fights in a Japanese medical devices company to develop complinat devices wuith EU régulations:

Pas de panique
comme je l'ai écris sur un forum de nos copains anglais :

The text contain statement : ( in the ECHA document
http://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/a55e40f4-9515-475a-a6de-25bd991c3f84 (http://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/a55e40f4-9515-475a-a6de-25bd991c3f84) )

Table 2-B Article types which are exempted as covered by European Union legislation specifically regulating lead content
.....
3. Toys Directive 2009/48/EC on the safety of toys.

B. : Then I read the directive
Now in the Directive, we read (
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:170:0001:0037:en:PDF (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:170:0001:0037:en:PDF) )
List of products that, in particular, are not considered as toys within the meaning of this Directive (as referred to in Article 2(1))
....
2. Products for collectors, provided that the product or its packaging bears a visible and legible indication that it is intended for collectors of 14 years of age and above. Examples of this category are: (a) detailed and faithful scale models; (b) kits for the assembly of detailed scale models; (c) folk dolls and decorative dolls and other similar articles; (d) historical replicas of toys; and (e) reproductions of real fire arms.

So I think that from now, all producers, importers, sellers must add on the packaging " intended for collectors of 14 years of age and above "
But, I guess, it must be written in the country official language .. So importers prepare some stickers ( exemple; in Belgium it must be in french, netherland, german . those are the 3 officials in Belgium )

http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/t14585-interdiction-du-plomb-dans-les-figurines#301414 (http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/t14585-interdiction-du-plomb-dans-les-figurines#301414)
Indeed, and in particular with toys, requiring a CE safety mark (meaning a CE log must be affixed on toys, to state their safety Under the responsibility of the manufacturer,   1) we should probably avoid these flats to be named "TOYS", by a statement of the device on the package2) That statement should indeed exclude the use of the device as a TOY explicitely as suggested3) Such statements must be in the language of the country of sales, everywhere sold, as part of the packaging, and of the unit pack (if it can be sold as a single unit).  If sold in a neutral box as second hand, be careful to keep such statement affixed with a self adhesive sticker too !!! Therefore that sentence "intended for collectors of 14 years of age and above "  might have to say also, "This is not a toy, but ....." to exclude such intended use !Also the sentence must be affixed on the packaging of the unit(s) on sales, in the languages of the countries where sold. This means if selling in Germany, with German, in Italy, with Italian, in Swtzerland, with 4 languages, in Belgium also in three(FR, NL, DE), etc.... A group should coordinate the multilingual translation of the final sentence (like "This is not a toy, intended or collectors of 14 years age and above, contains lead" in all languages in Europe and byond Europe (Russian see Vladimir Nuhzdine), ... and freeeze these translations are totally equivalent (no addition, no shortcut), for use by all manufacturers and distributors on the same way. My recommendation is to define globally, or by manufacturer where they are selling their flats, then define the first three largest sales for fixing three languages mostly used, perhaps four ... Then affix the most used on the packages of the manufacturer (German editors may choose German, English, ...)  French ons, like (deleted) perhaps French (only?  or French/German/English), and include this in their base pakaging lay-out. But then when selling to other countries (like EBay, or exhibitions elsewhere, ), they will have 1) to post explicitey these sentences visibly on the selling boot2) when selling a flat to a user not of the language present, Add a small sticker in the missing language (example, when coming at Ransart Belgium, add a Dutch sticker on the pack sold, when shipping to Italy, add a Italian sticker on the pack (in addition to the statement in the EBay ietm to warn the user; when selling in Spain, add a Spanish sticker before moving there on one pack exposed of each item, or add at time of sales !!) Indeed, information must be available in the language of the USER to be understood, as a saety notification !! Working on these proposals, perhaps with advise of the ECA on the sentence, BEFORE Kulmbach would be an excellent initative to offer concretely to care about such risk !! Although in Turkey now till Kulmbach, if I can be of ay support, don't hesitate...  Please establish a link with the key producers or most representative editors, at least in each country like FR, GE, ITaly, Spain, UK, .. to have at least on key eprson t participate to these discussions and perhaps be present at Kulmbach in August to finalize with the representative invited ..... This is a good exercise, that IFFS could lead with Germany, largest manufacturing country and organizer of Kulmbach in the coming two months, to bring an effective proposal to this safety concern.  We may end up with some recommendation guideleline to the editors, producers, distributors of flats on the European market via National association and this Society to be in line with these actions !!
With best regardsHannibal/Michel

 
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 23, 2015, 12:35:31 PM
Hi Michel,

before I get into specifics, I would like to see what the Officer has to say.once he has seen my photo's he might get a better idea of what we are about.

I also re-read the document, and under directive 2009/48/EC  it states that toys would be exempt!!!

this makes no sense! toys by definition are items manufactured for the use by children. ie.from years 1-8.
therefore, toys made with lead would therefore be exempt from this ruling!!!  the second definition of a toy, in a Childs dictionary, is ' something to be put in ones mouth and throw at the dog!!!'

if I understand this is correct, the rules and regulations are as with most regulations, in a right mess!

The problem with regulations is that the more you regulate, the more complicated it all gets!

these are not toys, so where is the harm?   if it needs a label, well so be it, but what really does this achieve except extra unwanted and unnecessary  costs to the manufacturers.

My kids never ever touched my figures, they were on a shelf, and although my son was a bit of a menace climbing all over the tables, window sills etc. not once did he go near the book case.
it's called discipline, something that needs to be readdressed with the EU.
children and adults need to be held responsible again for their own actions. in a democracy we are as i recall suppose to have a choice.

unfortunately, I have come to learn from buisness that apparently there are no more accidents!!
someone else is always responsible. All it does is make life harder and lesscenjoyable.


Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Glen on May 23, 2015, 01:10:43 PM
Pretty much all true Nick. But... the fact is many parents do NOT instill discipline in their kids. Too many adults can even control their own impulses. That is why so many governments have a predilection for imposing laws and enforcing the nanny state. It is endemic to human nature.


Are these rules also being imposed on round figure makers? What's their take. How about the gaming industry which has bazilions of 30mm figures and war machines engaged in tabletop gaming by kids and adults? There's a lot of money involved here, to say nothing of jobs.

[/size]As for stickers, why texts in so many languages? Why not a yellow triangle/diamond symbol (international symbol for caution) with a black '14'  and the letters Pb - the symbol for lead on the periodic table.[size=78%]


Glen
(obviously with time my hands...)
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 23, 2015, 01:47:47 PM
Glen, your suggestion on symbols is indeed bright, but these not acceptable in Europe, as it won't be in the USA either, because these symbols (except the triangle with ! (*) are not harmonized, by a EU directive, end therefore must be explicitely explained, for exemple in an Instructions for Use or on the back of the box, when symbol is used on the unit label.
And "Pb" and "14" have no meaning.  So are "O" for oxygen, or "N" for Nitrogen (azote), and 14 is only a number, not a lot, nor a size, ...
(*) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_hazard_symbols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_hazard_symbols)
 
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: MaEck on May 23, 2015, 01:51:50 PM
Dear Gentlmen,

this my first post over here, so first let me say somthing about my person. My name is Markus Eckmann,  I´m from Bavaria / Germany, I´m a figure enhusiast, I`m the owner of a figure company and I´m the publisher of the Figure-Mad-Forum.

I brought this discussion to Planet Figure, but I fear the discussion over there ist not very helpful. Your discussion is more constructive and similiar to the discussion in in the Figure-Mad-Forum.

I think the planned ban of the tin figure is a farce. Especially when we have a closer look on the planned guidline. As more I read it as more I see how illogical the whole guideline is. Toys are allowed, ammuniation is allowed (for me as sportshooter ok), but figures that are not planned as toys for children are forbidden. In my opinion that`s simply crazy...

I think it is very imortant that we see the figure in general - not only the flat figures. To cast figures with lead free whitemetal ist no probleme if you take small figures like 25mm or tabletops. For flats and bigger round figures it is extremely difficult or nearly impossible. OK, we could use resin, but if I think about what this means to a company with 100, 200 or more figures... No one will be able to pay that all...

So I hope we as figure enthusiasts will be able to stand together and bring this to a reasonable result.     

Take care,
Markus
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: errant49 on May 23, 2015, 02:07:00 PM
Thanks Markus
I see that the flat community is gathering against this stupid EEC idea
Eric
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 24, 2015, 10:41:09 AM
Hi Markus, how are you doing? good to have you on here.

if I don't get a reply from the scientific officer by Tuesday, I will email him again.

I will then if necessary get hold of Klio, Berliner etc. to make a more forward push.

Webhave a saying here,  slowly slowly little Monkey ----  then if all else fails we send in BRIAN with his 'little tank'       

if that don't scare them, nothing will   hahaha
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: MaEck on May 24, 2015, 11:04:57 AM
Hi Nick,

thanks for your warm welcome !!

I tried to mobilize all german (round) figure producers and the organizers of the Duke of Bavaria. The response was a little bit dissapointing, but I know several of them became active and protested via the website of ECHA. Also a lot of collectors are supporting us and protested, too.

It`s very good to hear that you are in touch with der ECHA and I´m curious what you will report next.

Good to hear we have Brian and his little tank in the reserve - could be worthful if they give us no chance... ;-)

I keep close,

Markus

 
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 24, 2015, 01:27:45 PM
When I read the recent comments of Errant published on another forum, I think that comparing the number of deadths caused of children by lead, or by cars, we should immediately stop selling cars in the EEC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
" Martin Rohman a raison ; la situation est sérieuse
Voici copie de la réponse faite par la CEE à la KLIO
Si je lis bien c'est la mort du plat d'étain de moins de 5cm

Dear Mr Beier,
We would like to thanl KLIO for submitting comments on the draft lead guideline via the ECHA’s Call.
We would first like to inform you that the new Commission Regulation (EU) 2015/628, imposing the new restrictions of lead in consumer articles, (amendment of entry 63 of Annex XVII to REACH) has been recently adopted and published in the Official Journal (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32015R0628&from=EN (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32015R0628&from=EN)). Please note that the table 2-A of the guideline is simply listing the article categories exempted from the restriction (par-8 of the legislative text). For this reason, your request to add the lead containing tin-based figurines in the table 2-A could not be further considered.
What we would certainly like to explore with you, though, is the nature/application of these specific articles so as to understand and conclude on their inclusion (or exclusion) from the scope (in order this to be clearly and properly reflected in the final guideline).
In principle, we understand from your startement that these articles cannot be considered as toys (Dir 2009/48/EC), otherwise they would be automatically exempted from this restriction. In your comment you note that …”the tin figure is an important part of our European heritage and an optimal medium to make historic events clear and comprehensible, both in museums and in special exhibitions”…If the use of these figurines takes place almost exclusively in museums/exhibitions centres (e.g. for representing battles and other historical events…), these could be possibly considered as professional applications and thereby “out of the scope of this restriction” (that concerns only articles “supplied to the general public”). However, from other comments -also received via ECHA’s call-, we assume that they can also be sold to collectors, which can be broadly considered as “consumers”. If that be the case, these items could be found in a houshold, in the proximity of children (if left for instance on a table as decorative items where small chidren can reach and place them in their mouth).Please let us know if you think otherwise or you may have other views/information on the above mentioned use of these articles.
In addition, the received comments state that lead is essential for the manufacturing of the tin-based figurines mainly because of the flowability of the metal for pouring out all fine details. Isn’t there any other alternative substance or alternative process that could function similarly well to lead in the production of these articles? If not, what is actually that makes lead so unique and unreplacable for this process?
Please note that the restriction will apply only to new articles that will be placed on the EU market after 1 June 2016 (given that  second hand items -already existed in the market before entry into force of the new provisions-are exempted from this restriction, par-10 of the legislative text).
We are looking forward to receive your response/clarifications on the above mentioned questions. Please note that all the received comments via this ECHA’s Call will be further discussed with the Commission services, during the preparation of the final guideline (for which Member States will be also informed in the upcoming CARACAL meetings).
Yours sincerely,
 
SotiYours sincerely,

Sotirios Kiokias

Scientific officer-Risk Management Implementation

European Chemicals Agency
Annankatu 18, P.O. Box 400, FI-00120 Helsinki
Tel. +358 9 6861 8800
Fax: +358 9 6861 8210rios Kiokias

 
 
I  tnink that with such bureaucrats, I wll start votogn against the EEC from now on !!!!
 
 
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 24, 2015, 01:38:04 PM
It is over, we just now have to built up inventory from all flats made and distributed before January 1st 2016, and for the next 30 years ....
 
and post in all musea and exhibitions in Europe "KILLED by THE EEC eurocrats on 22 April 2015 (date of the  amended directive)"

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/? (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2015.104.01.0002.01.ENG)
 
 
 
 
23.4.2015   ENOfficial Journal of the European UnionL 104/2

COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) 2015/628
of 22 April 2015
amending Annex XVII to Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 of the European Parliament and of the Council on the Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation and Restriction of Chemicals (‘REACH’) as regards lead and its compounds
(Text with EEA relevance)
THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION,
Having regard to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union,
Having regard to Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 18 December 2006 concerning the Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation and Restriction of Chemicals (REACH), establishing a European Chemicals Agency, amending Directive 1999/45/EC and repealing Council Regulation (EEC) No 793/93 and Commission Regulation (EC) No 1488/94 as well as Council Directive 76/769/EEC and Commission Directives 91/155/EEC, 93/67/EEC, 93/105/EC and 2000/21/EC (1), and in particular Article 68(1) thereof,
Whereas:
(1)On 21 December 2012, Sweden submitted to the European Chemicals Agency (hereinafter ‘the Agency’) a dossier pursuant to Article 69(4) of Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 (the Annex XV dossier), demonstrating that due to their mouthing behaviour, children, especially those under 36 months, may be repeatedly exposed to lead released from consumer articles containing lead or lead compounds. Lead and lead compounds are present in consumer articles as intentionally added metallic lead, as an impurity or additive of metal alloys (particularly in brass), as pigments, and as a stabiliser in polymers (particularly in PVC).
(2)Repeated exposure to lead from mouthing of articles containing lead or its compounds can result in severe and irreversible neurobehavioural and neurodevelopmental effects to which children are particularly sensitive given that their central nervous system is still under development. The placing on the market and use of lead and its compounds in articles that are supplied to the general public, and which can be placed in the mouth by children, should therefore be prohibited if the concentration of lead (expressed as metal) in that article, or part of the article, exceeds a certain threshold.
(3)On 10 December 2013, the Committee for Risk Assessment (hereinafter ‘RAC’) adopted its opinion, concluding that the restriction is the most appropriate Union-wide measure to address the identified risks posed by lead and its compounds present in articles intended for consumer use in terms of the effectiveness in reducing such risks and proposing certain modifications of the scope of the restriction.
(4)On 13 March 2014, the Committee for Socio-Economic Analysis (hereinafter ‘SEAC’) adopted its opinion in which it concluded that the restriction proposed by the dossier submitter, as modified by RAC and also by SEAC, was the most appropriate Union-wide measure to address the identified risks, in particular in terms of proportionality. This conclusion was reached after analysis of available socioeconomic evidence and on the basis of best available estimates for uncertainty factors, taking into account that there is no threshold for the neurobehavioural and neurodevelopmental effects of lead.
(5)The Agency's Forum for Exchange of Information on Enforcement was consulted during the restrictions process and its opinion was taken into account contributing to a modified description of the scope and exemptions from the proposed restriction.
(6)It has to be concluded that an unacceptable risk to human health arises from the presence of lead and its compounds in articles supplied to the general public exceeding the content limits or, alternatively, the migration rate limit as specified in the opinions. Those risks need to be addressed on a Union-wide basis.
(7)On the basis of the established derived minimal effect level of lead, the mouthing behaviour of children and studies on lead migration from metallic parts of jewellery, a limit content for lead should be set which will apply to metallic and non-metallic parts of articles unless it can be shown that the rate of lead release does not exceed a certain threshold. For coated articles, the coating should be sufficient to ensure that this rate is not exceeded for a period of at least two years of normal use of the article.
(8)Exemptions from this Regulation should be made for certain articles in relation to which the expected migration level is low, such as crystal glass, enamels and precious and semi-precious stones, or acceptable provided that a certain content limit is not exceeded, which may be the case for brass alloys, and for specified articles whose small size means that exposure to lead is minimal, namely tips of writing instruments.
(9)Keys, locks, padlocks and musical instruments can potentially be mouthed by children and therefore may pose a risk to children if they contain lead. However, those articles should be exceptionally exempted as there seems to be a lack of suitable alternatives to lead in the manufacture of those articles, and the possible adverse socioeconomic impact of applying the restriction to them could be significant. Similarly, the impact of applying the restriction to religious articles and certain batteries has not been fully assessed and it is therefore appropriate exceptionally to exempt them from its scope until a detailed assessment can be performed. Therefore, the new paragraphs in this entry should be reviewed after an appropriate period following their date of application, as well as the requirements on coating integrity.
(10)Articles already covered by specific Union legislation regulating lead content or migration should, for reasons of consistency, be exempted.
(11)Guidelines regarding articles that fall within and outside the scope of this restriction should be developed to assist economic operators and enforcement authorities in its implementation.
(12)Economic operators should be allowed a transitional period to adapt their manufacturing to the restriction laid down by this Regulation and to dispose of their stock not yet placed on the market. Furthermore, the restriction should not apply to second hand articles which were placed on the market for the first time before the end of that transitional period as that would give rise to considerable enforcement difficulties.
(13)Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 should therefore be amended accordingly.
(14)The measures provided for in this Regulation are in accordance with the opinion of the Committee established under Article 133 of Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006,
HAS ADOPTED THIS REGULATION:
Article 1
Annex XVII to Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 is amended in accordance with the Annex to this Regulation.
Article 2
This Regulation shall enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union.This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.
Done at Brussels, 22 April 2015.For the Commission         
The President         
Jean-Claude JUNCKER

(1)  OJ L 396, 30.12.2006, p. 1 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/AUTO/?uri=OJ:L:2006:396:TOC).

ANNEX
In Annex XVII to Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006, column 2 of entry 63 is amended as follows:
(1)paragraph 6 is replaced by the following:
‘6.By 9 October 2017, the Commission shall re-evaluate paragraphs 1 to 5 of this entry in the light of new scientific information, including the availability of alternatives and the migration of lead from the articles referred to in paragraph 1 and, if appropriate, modify this entry accordingly.’
(2)the following paragraphs 7 to 10 are added:
‘7.Shall not be placed on the market or used in articles supplied to the general public, if the concentration of lead (expressed as metal) in those articles or accessible parts thereof is equal to or greater than 0,05 % by weight, and those articles or accessible parts thereof may, during normal or reasonably foreseeable conditions of use, be placed in the mouth by children.
That limit shall not apply where it can be demonstrated that the rate of lead release from such an article or any such accessible part of an article, whether coated or uncoated, does not exceed 0,05 μg/cm2 per hour (equivalent to 0,05 μg/g/h), and, for coated articles, that the coating is sufficient to ensure that this release rate is not exceeded for a period of at least two years of normal or reasonably foreseeable conditions of use of the article.
For the purposes of this paragraph, it is considered that an article or accessible part of an article may be placed in the mouth by children if it is smaller than 5 cm in one dimension or has a detachable or protruding part of that size.
8.By way of derogation, paragraph 7 shall not apply to:
(a)jewellery articles covered by paragraph 1;
(b)crystal glass as defined in Annex I (categories 1, 2, 3 and 4) to Directive 69/493/EEC;
(c)non-synthetic or reconstructed precious and semi-precious stones (CN code 7103 as established by Regulation (EEC) No 2658/87) unless they have been treated with lead or its compounds or mixtures containing these substances;
(d)enamels, defined as vitrifiable mixtures resulting from the fusion, vitrification or sintering of mineral melted at a temperature of at least 500 °C;
(e)keys and locks, including padlocks;
(f)musical instruments;
(g)articles and parts of articles comprising brass alloys, if the concentration of lead (expressed as metal) in the brass alloy does not exceed 0,5 % by weight;
(h)the tips of writing instruments;
(i)religious articles;
(j)portable zinc-carbon batteries and button cell batteries;
(k)articles within the scope of:
(i)Directive 94/62/EC;
(ii)Regulation (EC) No 1935/2004;
(iii)Directive 2009/48/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council (1);
(iv)Directive 2011/65/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council (2)                                                                   
9.By 1 July 2019, the Commission shall re-evaluate paragraphs 7 and 8(e), (f), (i) and (j) of this entry in the light of new scientific information, including the availability of alternatives and the migration of lead from the articles referred to in paragraph 7, including the requirement on coating integrity, and, if appropriate, modify this entry accordingly.
10.By way of derogation paragraph 7 shall not apply to articles placed on the market for the first time before 1 June 2016.

(1)  Directive 2009/48/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 18 June 2009 on the safety of toys (OJ L 170, 30.6.2009, p. 1 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/AUTO/?uri=OJ:L:2009:170:TOC)).
(2)  Directive 2011/65/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 8 June 2011 on the restriction of the use of certain hazardous substances in electrical and electronic equipment (OJ L 174, 1.7.2011, p. 88 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/AUTO/?uri=OJ:L:2011:174:TOC)).’
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 24, 2015, 01:45:03 PM
I am now spending half of my life in Turkey, where flats will continue to be sold....
Same for the USA (and ) !!perhaps England if they decide to separate from the EU.... after the referendum of 2017/2016.
 
We invite the EU manufacturers to move outside the EEC, and the painters aswell....  It is called "relocation of art"
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 24, 2015, 02:00:05 PM
(http://illiweb.com/fa/empty.gif) (http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/t14585-interdiction-du-plomb-dans-les-figurines#top) (http://illiweb.com/fa/empty.gif) (http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/t14585-interdiction-du-plomb-dans-les-figurines#bottom)
(http://illiweb.com/fa/yellow/profil6eh.jpg) (http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/u1549) (http://illiweb.com/fa/yellow/mp8vk.jpg) (http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/privmsg?mode=post&u=1549) (http://illiweb.com/fa/yellow/email0cr.jpg) (http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/profile?mode=email&u=1549) (http://illiweb.com/fa/subsilver/icon_online.gif)
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Isly1844 (http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/u262)

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(http://illiweb.com/fa/empty.gif)
(http://illiweb.com/fa/empty.gif)Sujet: Re: Interdiction du plomb dans les figurines   (http://illiweb.com/fa/subsilver/icon_minitime.gif)Aujourd'hui à 19:50(http://illiweb.com/fa/yellow/citer0wl.jpg) (http://www.leforumlafigurine.com/post?p=301541&mode=quote)   

Bonsoir,
Voici le commentaire que l'AFCFEF a envoyé via le formulaire en ligne.
Si ça peut aider ceux qui voudraient aussi apporter leur pierre à l'édifice...
Amicalement.
Mathieu

"Tin figures are totally part of European history. They were toys for children in the past, but nowadays they are only used by collectors and painters to make historic events more realistic in special exhibitions and in museums. Usually all packagings of tin figures must mention "this is not a toy, not for sale to minors under 14 years of age", which seems to be already good enough to avoid any misunderstanding concerning the final use of tin figures. Unfortunately the production of tin figures needs  some lead, and due to the new European directive that you are putting together, it might be forbidden to produce and sell tin figures. Actually tin figures are part of our European heritage and they might be erased by this directive . We would like you to consider tin  figures out of the scope of the forbidden objects and so to save for the the next  generations a part of our common heritage. Otherwise the production of tin figures will be definitely put an end to because the use of lead is compulsery in the alloy of tin figures, as it is made of lead and tin."

____________________________________________
(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/286590logo.jpg) (http://afcfef.fr/)
[/t][/t]
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 24, 2015, 02:01:42 PM
hi Michel,

not over yet, matey, I don't go away that easily!!!! ;D

this is nearly the same response I got, if you read further there is scope for them to exclude these from the regulation if we can say that there is no other alternative than lead, and we can make a good argument. in the meantime can someone let me know the following.

what content % of tin is lead?   I presume there is no alternative, as it's needed for flow and flexibility of the material.

a pure lead pencil is acceptable, even though a child could eat this easier than a figure!!!   and toys are exempt!!!  utter lunacy.

what gets me is that they have been discussing this since 2013 and never realised these figures existed!!!!  how can you make a sweeping ban without firstly checking to see what is effected!!!

If I did this in my company I would be called an incompetent fool!!!

I await a reply from Sotirios and if I don't get one, as I said, I will go back forthwith!

Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 24, 2015, 02:13:22 PM
re reading the list, All religious items are exempt, therefore Vladimirs, St Micheal and Mr Otto's 
 St George figures are ok to continue to make.   ;)
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 24, 2015, 04:32:02 PM
Thanks Nicholas,
No dobt you will also make heir lifes uneasy; but we need to mobilize representatves from the mains countries where used and sold, surely Germany and France, to obtain supports locally.
 
When looking at EBay.fr, de, uk....we find daily on sales
2800 pieces in Germany
450 in France
a couple (<50) in the UK
less elsewhere ... perhaps choosing the right name translated (Spain? Italy, Sweden, The Netherlands, Switzerland)
Do we have contact in these countries?  For purpose of explaining, can some casting editors explain their lead content, and properties to have position paper ready  (range of content, ...). I guess the most dangerous step is the casting!
 
So Germany , and France have such tradition on life
 
 
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: blaster on May 24, 2015, 11:32:03 PM
I just want to correct a myth on lead pencils:

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/11/why-pencil-lead-is-called-lead/
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Glen on May 25, 2015, 05:05:47 PM
Well, lets see... Joerg's first post was the 18 May and it's a done deal with Hannibal's post on 24 May citing a directive dated 22 April. Seems this thing was well along before the figure makers/painters found out about it. I find it difficult to believe that a multi-national bureaucracy was able to do all of this without the relevant parties - round and flat figure makers, dollhouse furniture makers, and the few model detail companies that still make white metal detail parts - finding out about it and protesting. Was this a closely guarded secret or simply not advertised well before hand?


Given that, there should be a means of exempting certain industries after the fact. How much are lawyers going for these days...?


Hannibal, there has to be some Euro-wide regulatory body that coordinates the various multi-national symbols - think traffic, airports, bus/train stations, and the transport of hazardous materials. How does this group get the word out for a new symbol? Who regulates the production and labeling of glue and model paints? I would think it's only a matter of agreement, design, advertising, and publication. It would be phased in over a a year or two.


Glen
(again, with time on his hands...)
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 25, 2015, 07:31:58 PM
Glen,
 
Such symbols to be harmonized among all countries in Europe is the same difficutlies as to add one symbol in the Unites States = it requires a review of all national technical experts to look for such symbols not existing yet, well understood by end users, getting consensus from 28 countries , ... it may take 1 to two years to be ciruated, one more year to be adopted if consensus is found.
In my job in medical devices, our industres pushed to create many symbols new to avoid translations, but it take years and "lobbying" from several industries.
 
In addition for your market, such symbols will NOT be accepted in the USA without an English explanation on its meaning, if exposed to the USA, in American English, (perhaps also in Spanish?).  It would have to be coordinated worldwide with the ISO TC Committee also, involving all ww countries.
http://www.iso.org/iso/graphical-symbols_booklet.pdf (http://www.iso.org/iso/graphical-symbols_booklet.pdf)
we have the sign W16 from ISO7010  (triangle with Caution  Toxic material !!! on flats packaging.....
http://www.phs.zju.edu.cn/attachments/2014-09/01-1411466515-15747.pdf (http://www.phs.zju.edu.cn/attachments/2014-09/01-1411466515-15747.pdf)
The ISO7001 (ou EN7001 European) must be purchased ....
 
For the age = no  chance; for lead, ... I don't know .....
The request might be issued by a group of users too small and weakly represented in very few countries to have sufficient weight in Europe!
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: gerhard gady on May 26, 2015, 01:59:35 AM
Hello

Can anybody verify that collectors items are exempt. (like scale models) Or did I misunderstood something.
(signed as not useable for children under 14). jThey wrote this on hz-forum in Germany.
Otherwise there will be no tin figures anymore.

Best Wishes
Gerhard
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Brian on May 26, 2015, 04:13:09 AM

Ok board with this one as well and the large amount of emails and PM`s about this thread.

 I have better things to do with my life, no more messages please about this thread.

 Now locked

 Tommi


Resin Casting Service click link below
http://tommi-miniatures.moonfruit.com/#/casting-service/4588645622

http://www.planetfigure.com
http://tommi-miniatures.moonfruit.com
http://www.puttyandpaint.com/Tommi

Please click HERE for forum support


Tommi, Yesterday at 6:04 PM  Report



Well Planet Figure are board with the topic so it's locked   :o
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: gerhard gady on May 26, 2015, 06:07:44 AM
So because they are exempt they are forbidden.
Thats Logical.
So it's time to say Good Bye.
Gerhard
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Joerg on May 26, 2015, 07:02:45 AM
Is it a toy?

The Directive 2009/48/EC "grabs"
For certain substances like nickel tolerable limit values have been introduced and certain heavy metals which are particularly toxic, like lead, may no longer be intentionally used in those parts of toys that are accessible to children.

THERE IS NO POINT IN QUESTIONING TIN FIGURES AS TOYS.
The toy question simply is the wrong "war front":

@Gerhard, collector items are NOT at the extempt annex.
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: gerhard gady on May 26, 2015, 08:21:50 AM
Thank you Jörg!

Thats what I wanted to know. (I am Little slow in thinking)

Best Wishes
Gerhard
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: willie on May 26, 2015, 08:28:36 AM
Brian, Glen, Nick since this is banned we should all become lead legers :P  just like in prohibition, I know that my grandmother had some fun in that :-X  We could all move to Chicago and set up shop. Dust off are Thompson  :o  and become God Fathers of Lead.  So now its off to the pool Brandy in hand 8)  I know that I was born 200 years to late :-\ Willie
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 26, 2015, 09:18:04 AM
Dear All,

I have just received a phone call from Mark Blainey from the Risk Management Implementation Unit of the EU.
and I can confirm a few things

Firstly, this was put out some time ago for consultation but for some reason never came to either our attention nor the manufacturers until last week ,which is why they knew nothing about us.

After seeing some of my art and reading the Forum, they now have a better understanding of our predicament and I have been assured  that they are now trying to help us to resolve this situation, possibly with some form of an exemption. This does rely on other rule maker's, but they will definitely give it a go.  I should hopefully have a positive answer for you  in the next couple of days.

In the meantime, I would kindly ask you to refrain from putting negative comments on here, until we get a final outcome.

I would also like to thank Mark and Sotirios for getting back to me so quickly and for their understanding and help at this somewhat precarious time.

Thank You       Nicholas

Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: MaEck on May 26, 2015, 09:37:13 AM
Hi Nick,

that`s a word !!!

Fingers crossed they can help us.

Good work Nick !!!
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 26, 2015, 02:03:02 PM
 ;) ;) ;)
Thank you Nick, but inly a first step... a small batlle is noit the end of the war!
Good job to keep this art alive !!!!!!!
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 26, 2015, 03:30:49 PM
We will see Michel,

I'm feeling a lot happier today after speaking to Mark than I was at the weekend. :)

Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: willie on May 26, 2015, 04:48:17 PM
Good job Nick. So I guess its back to normal chaos :o  I am heading up to DC this weekend for the Heart Of The South Toy Soldier show and then its off to Gettysburg see a friend who has a book shop in the old part of town and with your cards. Willie
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on May 27, 2015, 01:06:15 PM
have a good show Willie, hope you are enjoying FL. 8)

just a quick update.

Sotirios ( Risk Officer )  informed me this morning that he and his collegues  are now liasing with the commission  to get this sorted for us.  Obviously this takes a bit of organising with the different departments, but I should hopefully get a reply within the next couple of weeks.

As soon as I know something, I will let you know forthwith.

Nicholas
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 27, 2015, 02:17:42 PM
On the forum  FIGURE MAD FORUM  today =
 
http://www.figure-mad.com/smf/index.php?topic=4659.45

disussions also; here is one of the ontacts:
(http://www.figuren-welten.com/smf/Themes/epic_2_0/images/useroff.gif) (http://www.figure-mad.com/smf/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=30)                         Carsten_Abel (http://www.figure-mad.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=30)                      (http://www.figuren-welten.com/smf/Themes/epic_2_0/images/post/xx.gif)                            Re: Entwurf einer EU-Richtlnie zum Verbot von (u.a.) Zinnfiguren (http://www.figure-mad.com/smf/index.php?topic=4659.msg94611#msg94611)                            « Antwort #58 am: Heute um 06:52:41 Nachmittag »Hallo zusammen,
Habe heute von Seiten der Organisation des Herzog von Bayern folgenden Brief an die ECHA geschickt. Ich hoffe es hilft.

Liebe Grüße aus Ingolstadt

Carsten



Reference:         
Draft guideline on the scope of the upcoming amendment of Entry 63 of     
Annex XVII to REACH on: Lead and its compounds in articles supplied to the general public
that can be mouthed by children.

Name:                                Lead and its compounds
EC Number:                       231-100-4
CAS Number:                    7439-92-1



Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

als Vorsitzender des Fördervereins Künstler und Figur, Kulturhistorische Zinnfiguren Ingolstadt e.V. möchte ich hiermit zum geplanten Verbot des Handels und der Herstellung von Zinnfiguren im Zuge der oben genannten Richtlinienentwurfs Stellung beziehen.
Nicht nur die Hersteller und Händler sind von dem Verbot massiv betroffen, ihnen wird in fast allen Fällen ihre Existenzgrundlage entzogen, auch die internationale Sammlerszene und die damit verbundenen Vereine und Organisationen sind dann nicht mehr arbeitsfähig, insbesondere in der Jugendarbeit .

Unser Verein veranstaltet seit nunmehr 15 Jahren in Ingolstadt gemeinsam mit der Stadt und dem Bayerischen Armeemuseum eine internationale Ausstellung, die mittlerweile zu einer der größten in Europa zählt. In Wettbewerben werden handbemalte Figuren in verschiedenen Kategorien bewertet und prämiert. Dies ist Kunst in höchster Präzision.
Sammler und Maler aus ganz Europa und der Welt kommen hier zusammen und zeigen, wie man über das Medium Zinnfigur internationale Freundschaften und Verbundenheit erzeugt.
Europäischer und weltoffener geht es nicht mehr.
In anderen europäischen Ländern werden solche Veranstaltungen ebenfalls durchgeführt, zu nennen sind die großen Ausstellungen in Montrouge (Paris), Sèvres, Brüssel, Siena, Triest und Girona. Weiterhin zu nennen ist die World Expo, die alle drei Jahre stattfindet, immer wechselnd zwischen Europa und den USA.
All diesen Veranstaltungen sowie den vielen international tätigen Vereinen in Europa wird durch ein solches Verbot die Grundlage für die weitere Tätigkeit, insbesondere auch für die Jugendarbeit, entzogen.

Seit fast 25 Jahren bemale und sammle ich Zinnfiguren. Diese Figuren sind alles andere als Spielzeug, sondern eine Darstellung von ziviler und militärischer Geschichte. Ich selbst habe drei Kinder, denen ich mit Hilfe der Zinnfiguren und dem Spaß am Bemalen den Zugang zur Zeitgeschichte vermitteln konnte. In einer Zeit, in der Kinder  von Smartphones und Computerspielen zunehmend vereinnahmt werden, ist dies ein nicht zu unterschätzendes Kleinod!
Unser Verein hat es sich zur Aufgabe gemacht, die historische Zinnfigur zu fördern und Geschichte über dieses Medium darzustellen. Dazu führen wir auch Kindermalkurse durch und vermitteln interessierten Kindern und deren Eltern den richtigen Umgang mit Figur und den entsprechenden Bemalungsmedien sowie den Einstieg in die historische Recherche.
Dabei weisen wir immer wieder darauf hin, dass Zinnfiguren kein Spielzeug sind. Sie gehören sicherlich nicht in die Hand von Kleinkindern, ebenso wenig wie viele andere Spielzeuge, die für Kinder unter 36 Monaten ungeeignet sind. Darauf verweisen aber auch alle Hersteller klar auf Ihren Verpackungen. Die Gefahr, dass Kleinkinder lange an Figuren oder Figurenbauteilen lutschen, besteht unserer Meinung nur in äußerst eingeschränktem Maße, und auch nur dann, wenn die Aufsichtspflicht und Sorgfaltspflicht durch die verantwortlichen Erziehungsberechtigten vernachlässigt wird.

Ich bitte Sie daher, dieses wichtige europäische Kulturgut nicht untergehen zu lassen.
Bitte nehmen Sie, auch im Sinne des europäischen Gedankens die historische Zinnfigur in Form der Flachfigur und der vollplastischen Figur in die Liste der Ausnahmen auf.
Um sich ein Bild  zu machen, können Sie gerne unsere Homepage besuchen. Hier können Sie in der Galerie eine Vielzahl von Figuren sehen.

www.kuenstler-figur.de (http://www.kuenstler-figur.de/)  bzw. http://1432124519.jimdo.com/ (http://1432124519.jimdo.com/)   

(Domain wird gerade umgezogen)

Gerne stehe ich Ihnen auch für weitere Fragen zu einem persönlichen Gespräch zur Verfügung.

Für den Vorstand

Carsten Abel
1. Vorsitzender

Förderverein Künstler und Figur, Kulturhistorische Zinnfiguren Ingolstadt e.V.
Weicheringer Straße 114c
D-85051 Ingolstadt   
Tel.: +49 8450 8668
Fax: +49 8450 9296746
carsten.abel1@t-online.de
   
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on May 30, 2015, 02:39:41 PM
To the expert visiting Kulmbach, one should offer him a book of Mike Taylor on the ARt of fkat figures paintings...
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on June 05, 2015, 01:56:25 PM
I sent an E.mail to ECHA this afternoon, trying to find out any decisions.

I have had a reply back from Sotirios and due to the amount of submitted comments they have
agreed with the commission colleagues that they need more time to reflect and assess the provided information.
Therefore an updated guideline will be discussed with Member States in November, rather than June.

I will keep you posted, but we may be required to make further clarifications during the coming months.

Not much else we can do at present, but I do believe the Scientific Officers understand our concerns and will help us to resolve the issue to all our benefits

Nicholas
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Joerg on June 24, 2015, 05:07:01 AM
Current News:

EU-representative Jens Geier asked the Commission, how they want to protect the "Zinnfigur"
(Not yet on the EU-Parliament website)

J.
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Hannibal on June 24, 2015, 03:53:35 PM
Thanks for this follow-up!!
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: Nicholas Ball on November 24, 2015, 01:41:25 PM
Hi All

It is now November, and so I have chased up Sotirios today and I have had  the following reply.

All I can say is that discussions on the lead guidelines are continuing with the commission and Member States ( including the exemption on figures ) Finalisation of the guideline is expected
in the 1st quarter of 2016.

sounds hopeful, but doesn't mention though, if they are interacting / or need to be, with the likes of Klio and major Manufacturers/ Editors.

Will keep you posted.
Title: Re: European Union will bann Tin figures
Post by: errant49 on November 24, 2015, 02:25:39 PM
Don't they have something else to deal with ? >:(  >:( >:(
Eric