International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society
Flat Figures Painters Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: snagy on April 28, 2023, 09:09:57 AM
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Hallo Friends!
Having sent my recent order I received the below answer from Fechner Zinnfiguren:
(http://www.intflatfigures.org/BFFS/gallery/20/2574-280423090458.jpeg)
Do you know something about them?
B.r.
Sandor
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Hello Sandor,
Mr. Fechner stopped selling flats one or two years ago and as far as I know there is no one anymore who cast the moulds. He also sold parts of his moulds as well. For example some of the von Droste moulds of the 30 years war to Schmalkaldener Zinnfiguren.
Christoph
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Thank you for the information, Christoph!
Actually at present I would be interested in the following figures of Mr Fechner:
66/5 Dudelsackpfeifer
66/6 Trommler
66/11 Schweizer Speerigel von Burgunderzeit
66/12 Schweizer Speerigel von Burgunderzeit
66/13 Schweizer Speerigel von Burgunderzeit
66/14 Schweizer Speerigel von Burgunderzeit
66/8 Schalmeibläser
May be you know something about their availability from some provider?
The figures are on this page of the Fechner-catalog:
(http://www.intflatfigures.org/BFFS/gallery/20/2574-290423022820.jpeg)
Thank you for the help!
B.r.
Sandor
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Dear Sandor,
Unfortunately, it is a big problem that the big old offices of the last few years are dissolving due to business closure, death or retirement.
In very few cases (actually only with small publishers) it is possible for the entire stock of forms or figures to be transferred to a new publisher.
The big exception is the continuation of the Kieler Zinnfiguren.
As a rule, the old publisher still wants high transfer prices for the forms, which means that only financially strong buyers strike;
Unfortunately, the stock of forms is split up much more frequently.
If you're lucky, the new editor will publish the takeovers of the forms.
Most of the time, unfortunately, not, and sometimes the molds disappear into private ownership.
Unfortunately, I cannot tell you where the shapes are for the figures you are looking for from the Swiss or Burgundian period.
But you can try to write or call Werner Fechner personally.
BG Christian
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Sadly, Christian is right.
In the next few years many editors are going out of business besause of age. And like in the case of Mr. Fechner who owns a lot of moulds it will not be easy to have an overview where all the moulds will be ending up.
I hope most of the figures from these moulds will be available in the future but I fear a lot is going to be lost.
Christoph
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It has been quite a roller coaster in the world of flats over the last few years. When I broke in 10 years or so ago the internet was beginning to arrive and really opened things up. Little by little there was a wealth of options and catalogs/vendors on-line which really helped someone trying to learn, such as myself, slowly pick up an understanding. Still many surprises - multiple vendors creating figures from the same drawings, figures changing vendors and thus names etc. The wonders of E-Bay also helped build the collection but, at times I purchased partial sets without realizing it which was frustrating but, I from multiple directions managed to acquire more figures than I will paint.
And at the apex - covid hit which has been devastating to the online community it seems. The last couple of years have significantly shrunk that market and finally many large vendors are beginning to retire and or pass on which has created another stress in the community. It truly feels like the passing of an era much of the time.
At one time I had very large sets of files on figures and uniforms along with a huge list of miniature manufacturers in the 80s and 90s. Much of the same had happened though this side of the hobby seems to currently be in somewhat of a renaissance due to a huge amount of prolific talented artists as well as resin figures and now short run figures produced via 3d printing. However. walking through some of the my old files and now defunct manufacturers was always a bit depressing. (The loss of model magazines has not helped as it is at times to discover new faces and makers much less learn about those of the past.) Lots of names and history just seemed to disappear - the downside of having access to everything is awareness when it begins to go away.
Hopefully our little niche will find a a similar way to thrive with new talent and directions along with much of the history and personalities documented as well.
mark
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Sadly I have to agree with the last statements, but it not just the old retiring from the production of flat figures, nearly every editor I talk to ,and that's a lot is thinking that they soon will close the door! just no one is buying figures anymore :(
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Sadly I have to agree with the last statements, but it not just the old retiring from the production of flat figures, nearly every editor I talk to ,and that's a lot is thinking that they soon will close the door! just no one is buying figures anymore :(
Wow! That's really alarming!
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Wow! That's really alarming!
I don't see it so negatively.
The really interesting, beautifully designed historical series have been coming from private individuals for many years. Like Mr Oldhafer, Mr Zimmermann or Mr Tappert. They produce the figures for their own pleasure and not because they want to make money with them.
The waiting times for the really good engravers are currently almost a year.
But it is of course a painful loss if moulds were to disappear from the market.
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"They produce the figures for their own pleasure and not because they want to make money with them."
Yes but you can not keep going on like this, you sell to make the next figure.
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The transition also seems to be a move away from toy soldier style with masses of figures to more of fine art and singles or smaller sets with greater focus on painting and finish. Wargamers developed their own figures and never seemed to adopt flats.
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"They produce the figures for their own pleasure and not because they want to make money with them."
Yes but you can not keep going on like this, you sell to make the next figure.
Many years ago, a well-known private editor wrote in the newspaper "Die Zinnfigur" that he had not yet been able to sell a single figure so often that the production costs had been amortised.
My experience as an editor is completely identical.
Today, larger historical series with 30mm figures can only be published if they are financed from one's own savings.
And that´s the problem with the mould takeovers: The family of a deceased editor sometimes thinks you can make a lot of money with the moulds.
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Interesting discussion. But, even a hobby has to support itself.
Looks like either the figures are changing - away from sets to "fine art;" or there is not enough demand to support the costs of providing our figures.
Not a sustainable situation. IMO.
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Hello Sandor,
just comes to my mind: there are 2 sets at Berliner Zinnfiguren of advancing footsoldiers can mostly used as swiss with some musicians as well. The figures were original edited by Traut and Lehmann. Maybe you can use it as well.
https://www.zinnfigur.com/Flachfiguren/Unbemalt/Militaergeschichte/Mittelalter/Fussvolk/Fussvolk-vorrueckend-Teil-1.html
https://www.zinnfigur.com/Flachfiguren/Unbemalt/Militaergeschichte/Mittelalter/Fussvolk/Fussvolk-vorrueckend-Teil-2.html
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Hi all
We flats collectors are becoming Dinausorus in a world which is going faster and cheaper !
Issueing flats is long and expensive and probably our hobby is more and more out of fashion
That is the way it goes
Fortunately there are still a lot of old figures appearing regularly
Up to the collectors to keep eyes open !
Eric
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Thank you for the many posts on this topic!
As a relatively young publisher (54 years old hahaha), I, who used to be just a collector, started 5 years ago, first adopting forms from other publishers, then developing new ideas.
Yes, I'm breaking new ground here that the established 30mm collector will not like, but I don't necessarily see success here when I watch the 40th Napoleon figure or the umpteenth series of Prussian fusiliers in the fire design. But that's just my opinion, other publishers think differently.
Everybody as he wishes.
My target group are therefore children, women and those interested in tin who don't know what to do with the classic tin soldier. The orientation is in the direction of figures larger than 30 mm, i.e. large/showcase figures or figures that can be presented very nicely in the picture frame.
My success is, I write this very honestly, mixed...
Some new characters inspire, some are non-starters.
Is just the way.
But I keep going.
Regarding costs:
The old publishers charge the old forms differently.
Some only take the usual market price.
But many are right on the money; what annoys me when I am offered molds at overpriced prices with the indication that the figure in question has already been misplaced....
I love these jokers... If the figure has already been sold so many times, everyone already has it, which means that these figures are already offered on the "flea market" pallets at every stock exchange....
Another cost factor is the assignment to one of the still existing engravers. If you can still get an appointment, the re-engraving can be really expensive.
Yes, it's my hobby, yes, I know that I put more money into it than I get out of it, but I don't have to become poor, I would like to get at least a fraction of the costs back. But it gets harder...
We will see.
In order to reduce the costs and get my own ideas through even better, I learned to engrave at a workshop with Martin Andrä.
No, I'm only on my 5th engraving and there's still a long way to go, but I think the progress is getting better and better.
We will see...
Therefore, do not lose heart, even if many collector friends die or give up the hobby, it will always go on.
Best regards
Christian
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Hello Christian,
I applaud your efforts to bring new subjects and styles to the flat figure market. I think there is a big market for folk tales and fantasy figures - even among the members of this site. I like the movie, fantasy and non-military subjects offered by Jupiteria Miniatura, Detlef Belaschk, Frank Dittmar, and the biblical subjects of Zinn-Bernhard Bakat, to name a few. If the figure is well-done, I think price is not a problem for flat figures. If you take into account the tremendous price jumps in rounds over the last few years, flats are still a real bargain. So, charge what you have to, and please continue to offer us some new and innovative figures. Good Luck!
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I totally support this apporach too !!
New painters are young, interested by sizes larger than 30mm and no longer large series ....
Flats will survive there and continue with smaller ones in the second hand market.
These size will continue to exist if the cost is recalculated w/o including sold moulds cost in their selliong price.
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Christian,
I echo PJ's points and applaud your efforts. As Deltef Belaschk and Zinn-Bernhard Bakat have shown there is still a very good market for figures out of the main-stream that are well designed and engraved or I am assuming so based on the number of their figures I see in the show pictures. (Large figures such as pirates or stories of the bible are not my joy but, there is sure some stunning examples out there!) Keep up the good fight and bravo for exploring some new areas in the flat world - that's what drew me to them in the first place, the sheer variety and specifically in my case Western's Alice in Wonderland and Mohr's One Night in Venice - both decidedly out of the mainstream.
mark
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Markets and value are key components to the hobbies' viability and the attraction of money investors and collectors. Do these investors want art or collections of work by acclaimed editors and publishers? Both! And I agree attracting labor investors--painters-- should lead to the collectors/investors taking notice. Therefore, Christian, I have much appreciation for your efforts and innovation in finding new markets. It is a bit of wonderment to see new subjects and ideas come to fruition. The experimentation generates new painters and old enthusiasts can find a place for them. The effort adds to the hobby or pursuit of miniature painting and collecting.
Additionally, the traditional 30mm flat also has much to offer that is timeless. The stories 30mm sets and groupings can tell go beyond military pursuits but human experience. Why is that lost on younger generations? The incredible amount of poses and angles of the 30mm flat cry out for a "story," whether historical battles or mundane human activities. The is plenty of space for creativity which flat enthusiasts have an abundance of.
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Thanks for the Feedback!!!
BG Christian
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A new borne on the market nowadays in France and stating to spread out in Europe thropugh Shows, contests and Facebook of flat painters is Centurion Miniatures.
I invite you to have a look, as they start to diversify from half-round bosses initially in resin 3D printing, to figures, flats, figures, .. and they are very present on many shows ....
www.centurionminiatures.com (https://centurionminiatures.com/fr/)
(4) Centurion Miniatures | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/people/Centurion-Miniatures/100063499661742/)
PLATS DE RESINE (centurionminiatures.com) (https://centurionminiatures.com/fr/61-plats-de-resine)
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That is an interesting thing.
The figures are really well made and may be nice to paint.
But for me this shows how our hobby changed.
This new figures are clearly made for painters.
I myself, as well as many other collectors here in germany are interested in creating historical scence. Doing research and painting figures based on that. So if I would be compleatly new and looking for some figures I can do that I would surely end up with 28mm wargaming figures.
There are some really interesting blogs at the internet with well painted figures
http://je-lay-emprins.blogspot.com/?m=1 (http://je-lay-emprins.blogspot.com/?m=1)
https://fullharness.blogspot.com/?m=1 (https://fullharness.blogspot.com/?m=1)
https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/?m=1 (https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/?m=1)
Christoph
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vey intyeresting sites to go and visit!!
Thanks Cristoph!