International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society
Flat Figures Painters Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: John Hoffmann on January 12, 2022, 06:16:33 PM
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I have seen that there are 2 books about Franz Karl Mohr.
Vol. I and VOL. II. Both are very hard to find and they are expensive. Singly or as a set of 2.
If I could only buy one, which? Vol I or Vol II?
I would probably be more interested in seeing photos of his flats, the line drawings and/or colour photos of his series painted.
My German is not that good.
If anyone has some pictures of book pages that would be awesome.
Any advice and thoughts are always appreciated.
Thanks!
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John have you read the two series on Mohr’s series in the BFFS Journal? These are an excellent starting point and have many of the drawings.
I have the second Mohr book, it has some drawings but, is not comprehensive - part but not all of some sets and again not all of them. It also has very little history on Mohr and the editors.
In terms of painted examples our gallery has dozens of them. Mohr has some of the most delightfullly detailed 30mm figures there are. Depending on the set I could probably name some favorites in the gallery with a few having multiple versions. Bistulfi’s site also has beautifully painted versions of many of Mohr’s sets.
Good luck - he is one of my favorites as well.
Mark
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Hi Mark,
Good to hear from you. I hope all is well with you and family.
Still crazy up here and more to come.
Yes, I have been finding all the articles in the Journal using the great index. Lots of information there for sure.
I'm just learning about him and collecting as many sets as I can find.
I bought the used "Robber Barons" set from Berliner and got the last "Bauern Krieg" 2 part set also.
I don't think that these 2 sets have all the figures that I have seen from the articles in the Journal.
They have not arrived yet so I'm not sure, but I do know that not all the figures are there. You don't have any extras, do you ;-)
It's too bad about Merten Holland not staying open.
I have ordered the complete "Snow White" set from Herr Dangelmaier.
I plan to post a "want" post here to see if there are some for sale from members.
The first book is about $65. CAD plus shipping. The 2 book set is over $200. CAD so too much for me.
Anyways, got to go, late here in Ontario.
Stay well and safe my friend.
John
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Hi John,
the sets Ekkehard, Olympia, Alexander&Diogenes by Retter are engraved by Mohr too.
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The first volume gives a history of Mohr's work (in German, of course) including descriptions of all the Wimor sets. There are colour photographs of many painted figures and monochrome shots of dioramas.
The second would probably be more useful to you. There is a comprehensive listing of Mohr's figures, grouped under the names of those who held the moulds when the book was published in 1998. Each figure from the set is briefly described, and there are line drawings of nearly all the figures. If you are interested in any particular set, I could always scan a few pages for you.
Ed H
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Thank you so everyone for your continuing help in my quest(s).
I am still trying to figure out Herr Mohr.
What figure goes with which set.How many figures in each set? Which are the smaller vignettes.
So much great information here on the forums.
Truly amazing. And the generous help from everyone.
The problem of course will be, where can I find the figures?
I don't want to be glued to ebay 24/7.
Maybe some members will have some sets or figures for sale.
Thanks again!
Stay safe.
John
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Your best bet in terms of volume is Berliner Zinnfiguren - if you search on Mohr they have a large number. Wilken also has several listed, they are in the links. (My experience has always been the set I wanted most as the hardest to find but, I have a happy backlog now.)
Modellbau Holland Merten was a sad loss and where I did most of my purchasing. On ebay Germany many sets are very common and they tend to come in waves, others particularly the large sets don’t show up often. Good luck.
Mark
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There are 3 volumes of F.K. Moor. The third book is a total of his work. So also the creation of figures cut out of sheet metal.
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Mr. Unger in Leipzig had any sets engraved by Mohr: Deutscher Bauernkrieg, Faust, Zahnreißer and any more. Please give a email to me so I will send the catalogue (pdf).
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I have slowly been collecting the Mohr figures, and have "enjoyed" hunting through all the various books and articles that I could find - plus had a little advice and help from the likes of Herr Unger, Herr Dangelmaier et al. I have brought together what I have found (maybe not 100% accurate, but certainly a start) in a spreadsheet to which I have added photos where I could find them plus links to articles and catalogues. A number of the pics etc are simply place-holders, including just adding snapshots from Krannich etc where this has helped me understand exactly what each set is comprised of, and as and when I find something I really prefer I change it. I am mindful, however, of potential copyright issues even if I do try and acknowledge the source whenever I can, plus not everyone wants their own hard work captured like this. It's OK as a personal resource but ...............
Such a thing could, however, be easily turned into a genuine Mohr "database", and attract additional comments / updates from IFFS/BSFFS members and others. Q is how best to do this? [I don't just want to upload it here and see what happens, but would prefer to have it as good as I can make it first. The enemy of the good, however, is the perfect .........]
I did have the idea originally of sending it to the main editors so that they could perhaps comment on provenance / history / etc and thus make it a really useful record. We are none of us getting any younger!
Views of members here welcomed. See snapshot attached.
Redman
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Cool.
I believe I have the pictures from Holland Merton Modellbau which had each set shown in its entirety. I will put them in Dropbox for you if my memory is correct.
Mark
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Hi Mark,
How do I access the "dropbox" to see the pictures of the Mohr sets?
Thanks!
John
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To Redman:
I don't see a copyright issue in having a person , or a group of persons, like a Club, or Forum, collecting lists of pictures, names, editors over time and making it available to their own members registered.
I have some 28,000 pictures of painted flats on my PC, many have been loaded in the galleries, as contsts shows, or selling objects on ebay, public sites. If we collect informatons from pub lic sites such as ebay, pictures during visits, museam and consolidate them in lists, including pictures, ... or publish a book like Rich Sandfers did with menz, where would the violation of copyright be? s we even don't make money or business wizth pupose to enrich ourselves with it?
We keep in most case track of the source and can give it, check information, correct if mistakes are detected.
I fnd the idea excellent, and I was since two days indeed excellent the idea of opening a gallery structured in smaller subcatégories for Mohr, as it could be done for others, where data, pictures can be loaded under coordination of one of us for consistency, size, lay-out. What should be defined as I do with my pictires of the shows, is a liste of data to be listed and completed as much as possible such as Title, serie name, serie code (if applicable such as the wimor ...), editor initial, current, engravor, drawing by, soiurce information (painting, batlle, ;;;), if known list of single pice identifiaction, oerhps on the picture itesel (the way I do on my computer, in a power point file, by period, or size, or editor, ...), and any painted versions, as Rick T? did in his book, then source of the data or picture as link or name, .....
The tables in the book of Rick is a very precious reference, the pictures unpainted and painted also, of course explanations give life.
Such work would be the premise to the future writing of a book, and why could -we not compensate the gap of the ditirs, because too much dispersed, or changing, or almost definitively enlained into a museum?
A good discussion for the comittee of this group, and some volunteers to manage such base
I start loading meny pictures from the selling EBAy site of the collection of Hanno XXX (but not exclusively of), into several historical periods, that even within, I feel also the need to further subdivide by .. sub-period, country, significant subject (like WWII, 30 years war, ...), altough other means are mossible such as use of key words to restrict the searching, in the existing fiels, most often not used. I can perhaps further review and use this field to load countries and significant wars, or periods..
Here as Mohr is the focus, editirs should be listed, perhaps with question mark, or certainty, or a date where loaded (for further upodating), or not known, for further update too.
You can also use many pictures from this Hanno Schmuck collection of Mohr, to move them there too. I was not aware when loading of the engravor, but I can update if useful, when aware as periodic cleaning and upodeate , as I do with shows, when the painting description or painter name is discovred later when it was loadede with a (unknown), or question.
I used the conventions
" name " as validated name
(name) is the name assigned by the editor
and no sign at all is a approximate description given my myself to identify.
I did invert between no sign and "xxx" as for all other description loaded from other perons, I have no certainty whethere they assigned as approximate name, their own work totle, or a copy from the editor or translation.
But I do attempt also to give the editor's name between 'xxx' in the comments so that search func tion can also capture the picture for various interpretations of painters , with othr persnnal names assigned !!
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I entirely agree with Hannibal that in this day and age of shared content it is surprising that there are not more collaborative efforts to catalogue editors / engravers / painters / etc. It's easily done, and as I hinted below it is probably about time this was pushed via this Forum and others so that the institutional memories or everyone engaged in the hobby can be drawn upon before they are lost.
Here's my current draft of my Mohr database including pictures - some of the text is a bit of a mix of German (which I speak) and English but I'm sure entirely comprehensible. If anyone has any objections or comments on ownership of content then please let me know direct [gordon.james[at]telenet.be]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qtlEfzy-1RSXEVPnP2HijsOXsD807qdOHqI-dqqXNY4/edit#gid=746177872
Hannibal: since we are both Brussels based, want to get together for a chat? I'd be very interested in learning what you have.
Redman / Gordon
PS: for Marco/Dropbox, I assume it would be for Marco to upload to Dropbox and then share the link (either here or by PM?).
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I have opened up the link so that anyone can view and comment on it (but not edit it).
G
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Wow!
I don't think that I need to buy the best recommended book on F.K.Mohr.
All the information that I was after is right here on the forum(s).
Thanks to everyone who were generous with their time and resources for posting all the information here.
Stay well!
Thanks again,
John
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Moderators: Want to start a Sticky on Editor/Engraver databases and listings? I do think it would be good to encourage this sort of activity. If so, could you add my link (below) to the spreadsheet created for Mohr engravings / drawings. Thanks.
I'd also like to share this with other major collectors's sites and publications eg ZF Leipzig, KLIO, Die Zinnfigur ............ Any suggestions as to what sites etc to approcah and perhaps also who the best interlocutor might be? Open to ideas: the database was quite a lot of work and I'd like to see it shared as widely as possible.
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Richard Taylor published last year a book on the flats issued by Mueller-Erfurt on the Middle Age.
This compendium is remarkable, complete, very well documented, I would even say "scientifically".
He is an excellent contact for understanding how he developped this book, and I won't be surprised to hear that is was probably le work of many years of search, patience and contacts on internet, but also in Germany, in the heart of the editors and collectors, in addition to his own provate gery and painted army....
Such book will keep its value only if in the future, the list of current editors is maintaed updated each time the moulds are moving around editors, cating organisatikons, musea and collectors, which requires a living communication system to update such information. Otherwise the work is lost once it becomes impossible to find out where to obtain new casted mouls, those which definitively are destroyed or lost, and perhaps new flats npainted visible in their painted format..
As Mohr's works are already described in several books, it is important to constitute a similar database active and structured together with their author(s) and whoever wishes to do a similar job as Rick.
Redman, try also to catch Rick in one of his trips to Europe and to Germany, like this year to Kulmbach to have a discussion there with other German key contacts of Klio and German representatives, all présent during these unique days next August !!
Rick is on this site, and so are several other German key members . You can get such framework organized and see who will be interested.
Then it maight be interesting to see if other editors or engravors could be develkopped (Wolfgang Hafer, Oldhafer, Kieler, ....) as such spreading is going to continue as many of the contributors are quiet aged, and the risk of getting moulds being dumped in musea and inactive or private collectors increases with time.
It is the same as art paintings of old Masters escaping in private hands and disappearing from the public.
Klio and de Zinnfiguur seems to be amng the most important key partners, if not coordinators for such action, and perhaps BFFS can increase its cooperation and communiactions thruogh several of the international members closer than today with them in the future, if the leading embers of the site (BFFS) do accept to go in this direction.
The same question ecists woith larger size flats such those handled by Western Miniatures (not spread), Jupiter Miniatura, Schmalkalders ZF, ..; and the many others ... Several of us have our own lists, none is completely updated, the list cheenges every months , we are going to disappear soon or later = how to maintain a global picture, and where ...
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Gentlemen,
I found in my folders these two sheets of WIMOHR. Being not a fan of Mohr I admire the way sets were presented.
Hope it will be of interest. Could somebody post other sheets by WIMOHR here?
Thanks
Oleg
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Excellent idea ....
(note = recollecting data on Mohr, could be also done for Gottstein .....)
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Wimor sheets are here on the site under flat figure history:
http://www.intflatfigures.org/index.php?topic=1978.0
mark
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Gentlemen,
I found in my folders these two sheets of WIMOHR. Being not a fan of Mohr I admire the way sets were presented.
Hope it will be of interest. Could somebody post other sheets by WIMOHR here?
Thanks
Oleg
Please Oleg,
can you explain reasons why you are not a fan? I'm interested on different point of view. and this could be a new topic ;D
Claudio
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Well Claudio, it is a delicate subject because I know that many collectors admire Mohr's style and even name him the best engraver of flat figures.
My personal understanding of flat figure is that is a part of flat relief art and every figure I am judging from this point of view.
Great masters of the past like Frank, Maier, Thieme , Vasques showed different approach to flat figure but were very professional in methods. The main ideas are: balance of ups and downs of the form, raising the edge of the contour to make it roll and give 3d effect etc. Scale balance is also very important. The figure itself is made in a scale and parts and details should be adopted to this scale which is not just simple diminishing the real figure 1:30, 1:40 ..... sculptors know very well that every scale has it's own set of form changes.
That is why artists and engravers of the past were searching for good ratios of foot to mounted figure. And they found it. Not many collectors nowadays really understand this heavy but very professional attitude in creating the figure.
So, why I don't like creations of Mohr:
- they are not finished. You may find a beautiful face or an arm together with crude feet without any shape and details
- not all of them well drawn and this is a surprise because he was a professional illustrator
- his grotesque figures are unnatural
- most of his horsed are poorly engraved and drawn and (to my understanding) has a bad rider/horse balance
- figure are poorly engraved from the technical point of view. Many parts are very thin and easy to break
I must say that when I first saw catalog sheets by WIMOR I was very excited. I was looking for these figures but after obtaining and painting few sets was totally disappointed.
Oleg
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Dear Oleg,
thank so much for your time in responding this not so simply request...I know!
After some years collecting figures (about from 1987...i was seventeen ;D ), ...and becoming oldest ... i've started to have more attention on the single figure engraving: es. Mohr figures have usually a great face characterization ... but usually not so good legs or arms proportion or disposition. Face is the focus and not the entire figure.
After beeing a first love, Mohr figures have passed on a second position...i think you're right. Could depend on a four hands work (as if there was an artisan workshop behind him, the master engrave or draw only face and a follower completes the rest?) ?
Some Mohr figures seem to be like unfinished...but his drawings are very refined.
Claudio
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Very interesting disscussion, and thank you very much, Oleg, for your honnesty! It is very useful as a foreigner, because I presume that Mohr is a national heroe inn Germany, as he produced series chich became very popular as Segom did with Napoleonic sets and middle ages, or some antiquity seriess.
It gives me a new insight for looking at these figures!
Of course the painter is also a key contributor, as he is on canvas painting and can either destroy or sublimate the engraving by his own art....
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Gentlemen,
thank you very much for your reaction on my post. Honestly I was not expecting any sort of support and your words just another sign for me how knowledgeable the people are in this Society with a great passion and understanding of flat figures. What you told me means that I am not alone in my search for better figures and creation a list of priorities.
Mohr deserve to be called a great muster but.... not the best. Simple like that.
Wish you happy collecting.
Oleg
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Oleg
Your point of view was quite interesting to read and very fair.
I personally don't have an issue with his treatment of feet though I suspect maybe some of your issues are in the producer - many of my figures use a quite soft metal and longer weapons do bend easily (they can also be a pain to clean up.)
Your critique of his take on horses is more than fair, I do find they generally appear a bit undersized vs. war horses or steeds. Also the Gypsy Camp and August der Starke going Hunting are a bit simplistic vs. his later output.
I do have a great fondness for the later work and I love his faces, humor and appreciation for simple life which I find appealing. (The Broom Seller, the Knife Grinder, The Dentist...)
For me Mohr figures are a bit of a treat with my major objection being to the size of some of his sets - which for me would be a year or more of dedicated painting.
Though as you say we are spoiled by a wealth of really outstanding quality choices. I do find painting a well designed/engraved figure much more pleasant than the alternative.
mark
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Thanks Mark, for giving me the insight of another collector's view on flats. It looks like we are carefully observing the subject of our passion and share our thoughts and feelings with colleagues. I do appreciate this conversation and glad that I ignited it.
Oleg
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I am in the "like" camp, have a good number of Mohr figures and sets but as yet not got to paint them, W.Otto has a close style and I have got these as well but I think it's history that give the Mohr figures the edge.
But well done on getting the list together, seen some figures I forgot I had, so a big thanks.