Purchasing Flats - the US Experience

[marko]

Apologies for the delay on this as well as it being a bit lengthy – I am going to make a shorter version and put it online for new Members of the site and hopefully will continue to receive feedback on online ordering.


Also many thanks for all of the thoughtful feedback - here is the summary.


There are 22 Editors and 4 Commercial Vendors listed which is still a small sampling of the universe of flat figure vendors.  Hopefully this can be expanded in the future.


Overseas Ordering 1st Tier:


There are a number of factors that enter into this rating some of which are specific to overseas purchasing.


Vendor has an online presence – this means a website but, not necessarily online ordering as well.  Email or other communication is adequate to communicate though online pricing is helpful.


Vendor takes PayPal or credit card transactions.   (This is a huge plus for overseas buyers.  Having to send Money Order or perform direct bank deposits is a large pain – particularly from the US.  Though usually there is a friendly member who will assist.)


On the other side many vendors do not include PayPal fees as part of their costs.  Members should make sure the Vendor is getting the full amount owed to them + the PayPal fees.  Many vendors are too polite to note the distinction and eat the cost themselves, which is not fair either.


Vendor is responsive to questions and communicates status well.


Product quality is excellent and packaging and mailing is good.
Finally, and arbitrarily more that one Member mentioned them in responses.


Note:


Federicus Rex, Benedikt Widmann and Segom are unusual among vendors in that they offer color information for their figures.  This seems to be generally appreciated by members and is a practice to be encouraged particularly in the case of heraldry.


Overseas Ordering - 1st Tier


B & S
Zinnfiguren Bock
Christian Carl Cortum
Fabrice Eisenbach
Fredericus Rex
Grunewald Zinnfiguren
Modellbau Holland-Merten
Histel Zinnfiguren
Benedikt Widmann & Jupiter Minatura
Alexander Wilken


Overseas Ordering – 2nd Tier

These vendors lack one of the attributes above – does not have an online site such as Neckel, Alexander Baden or they only received a single mention from Members – Rieger, Segom or do not take PayPal or similar - Western Miniatures.  None of these are significant issues  - I have had multiple happy experiences with most of them - one just needs to work with them a little differently.

Alexander Baden - sells figures via Ebay and Berliner Zinnfiguren
Ettlinger Zinnfiguren
Neckel Zinnfiguren
Zinnfiguren Rieger
Soldats de Collection Jean Barriere Segom
Western Minatures


Overseas Ordering Third Tier

Other vendors mentioned that lacked more than one of the attributes of the top tier.

Fechner Zinnfiguren
Heinrichsen Zinnfiguren
Kieler Zinnfiguren
Trost Zinnfiguren
Richard Wuensch

Commercial Vendors
Sell a number of figures from multiple Editors.  These were judged a little more severely as customer service and quality are assumed in this arena.


The Little Tin Soldier
Little Tin Soldier - good communication but, getting figures can be a bit slow as items are not always in stock. 


Red Lancers
Red Lancers - was noted as first rate in all aspects.


Berliner Zinnfiguren
Berliner Zinnfiguren - Website and selection are first rate, great quality castings but, customer service is consistently very poor.  Be careful when ordering that a catalog is not being included as the price rises significantly if it is.  Initial pricing when ordering does now include postage which is also very frustrating.


2d Figurines
2DFigures – good communication and quick service. 


Positive feedback - some examples:


I have found in the past Wilken to be very helpful, he sends a free gift with his orders too…
…
Grunewald zinnfiguren … have a facebook page and are friendly and very helpful with very good english and excellent quality.



Dieter Schwartz of Ettlinger Zinnfiguren…I expressed an interest in these also.  Several weeks later Dieter emailed me.......the figures were ready.  I purchased several and asked if a mounted band was possible.  I emailed Dieter some pictures of a mounted spahi.  Two weeks later a spahi band was available!


Negative feedback

Most common frustration was in the area of communication, unanswered email or mail communication making it difficult to purchase figures.

There where three vendors noted for uneven product quality and one, not on these lists, which was called out for lack of communication and lack of figures despite payment. 

As this caused a bit of a stir when the subject was mentioned I have kept the negative comments off line but, I will be happy to respond to anyone if they send me a message asking for some specifics.  The overwhelming opinion is that ordering online has been a fairly positive experience.

Conclusion


Please continue to send me your experiences and I will continue to update and broaden this list.


The good news is there is a large area of outstanding flats to be had from the many vendors listed here.

[blaster]

 Hello Mark,
I would be glad to share a little of my own limited personal experience in collecting zinnfiguren. I am generally a ronde-bosse figure maker but was exploring doing more ambitious dioramas, especially shadow box displays.  Larger scaled 3-D figure dioramas are just not practical for my lebensraum and I started to look at zinnfiguren seriously. I got a copy of Mike Taylor’s book on zinnfiguren about 5 years ago. That book clarified many things for me including how to read the dreaded preisliste or typenliste without pictures.  The internet helped greatly too.  I think that apart from the single well-established firm such as Berliner Zinnfiguren (BZ),  there are a few smaller firms such as Kilia, Henrichsen, Segom, Kovar, Gruenwald, Cortum, Holland-Merten, Go International, Western Miniatures and Braune with good looking catalogs. There are other even smaller editors (makers) with web presence and they appear to be small business concerns and enthusiasts. This is supplemented by small vendors such as Wilken and 2-D figurines.
 
I started off by sending out simple emails and queries to various email addresses, got replies and made small purchases by paypal. Some other vendors will simply ignore my emails. That’s understandable – the hassle for them to post their stuff to a foreign address may not be worth their while.
The bulk order procedure may work for very obscure editors. For example, if there was sufficient interest in a specific very attractive but rare range (Mignot, Gottstein etc), then perhaps the IFFS can have sufficient gravitas with European clubs for procuring these figures.  Alternatively, small vendors may see a business opportunity here?
 Naively, I had sent out an email to Krog several years back inquiring on the Gottstein figures. His widow replied that he had passed away and the moulds were under acquisition. I had also written (again naively) to Aloys Ochel. His daughter Erika replied to me that she is now running the business and so on.  Sometimes, I think that the difficulty in getting specific figures may be simply due to the fact that many of the practitioners are getting on, the moulds are too old or have been simply misplaced. Thus we on the forum may be wasting our time lambasting these makers who may simply be unaware of global interest in zinnfiguren outside of their arena.
Mine is not necessarily a huge collection. I am not a compleatist (intuitive word) and generally collect non-military subjects that I think can be used in a diorama setting. I also like to mix and match pieces from different sets. At about the same time that I started doing up the flats, my kid taught me how to set up a blogsite and that’s what I’ve been up to all this time.
 Rgds Victor

[marko]

All excellent thoughts Victor and I agree meeting vendors face to face would be the best way to go.  The relationships one develops in things like this make them special.  Your advice was well reasoned and provided honestly.

My understanding with the bulk order system was no was using the service any more given it was easier to puchase directly.  Again interesting advice.

I was also going to ask you for your experience given the large collection you show case on your site.  How where they acquired and could you send me some impressions?

cheers


mark

[blaster]

Hello Mark and all,
Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to help us get access to flats and related information, which for me is the whole point of joining this society. I am still digesting the background to this society slowly, through the journals. Doesn't the IFFS gather interest from members and then make direct enquiries and bulk purchases on our behalf? That may solve some of the ad hoc attempts to purchase from the more obscure vendors. 
The US perspective is based on having fantastic internet connectivity. The rest of the world may not have this facility.
My comment on going to Kulmbach was not meant to be trite advice. I was merely proposing an obvious alternative and suggesting patience in acquiring flats. I have not been to Kulmbach myself, but I can always forego having specific sets due to current unavailability. I have been in communication with various vendors who do not wish to sell to me. That's understandable - perhaps they may be friendlier if I had met them at Kulmbach - who knows? 

Rgds Victor
 

[marko]

I have digested the feedback so far and can supply the following which I will clean up further and add as a FAQ.  I will post some advice on vendors at the end of the week.



First of all keep two criteria in mind.  One this is a very small sub-set of data and two the focus is on purchasing from overseas, primarily via the internet.  However, the data is all based on user experience.


What makes a strong vendor for overseas customers?


There are a number of characteristics that are helpful from this aspect as well as a number of common items found in the top tier which will probably surprise no one:


Has a website with catalog
Prices are clearly marked
Takes PayPal or Credit Cards
Responds to Email in a timely manner


Also on the list -


Quality engraving – i.e. figures match the drawings.
(This one is a bit tougher to gauge.  All engravers are not equal and some sets have been engraved multiple times.  If you have doubts ask for a picture or place a small order first or ask here.)


Vendors with printed catalogs and no internet presence are not out of bounds to excellence just not as prevalent as I suspect they are not as commonly used among the internet generation. 


The same characteristics do apply:


They have a catalog with prices
Take PayPal or Credit Cards
Respond to email or postal mail in a timely manner


As a Vendor


Do have a website?
Ideally with not only drawings of figures as well as cast figures
Make sure it is accessible, easy to navigate and clear what you are providing.  (There is a reason EBay uses pictures to sell merchandise – people like to know what they are receiving.)


A catalog online is best
But, supplying one by email or printed sheets is workable. 


Online ordering is nice
But, ordering by email is perfectly acceptable.  Letting a customer know full price prior to ordering is a must.  (One or two vendors have a tendency to ship prior to a final acknowledgement which is laudable but, as a buyer one can feel pressured.)


DO respond to email
This is an accepted mode of communication and being responsive is a must have in some form.


Accept PayPal or Credit Cards
If you do not take PayPal due to the processing fee, make sure the processing fee is added to the bill – we will understand. 


Having to use British Pounds or Bank Draft is frustrating and will turn off many international customers.  (I have found partnering with someone in Europe who I can send PayPal to who effectively acts as a middle-man a very workable alternative and a great way to meet new friends.)


Color  Guides or Examples are a Plus
Offering color guides or pictures of painted figures is a BIG plus with some buyers.  Jupiter, Segom and Fredricus Rex, among others, are all notable for making the effort to do this.  It is very appreciated by some.




As a buyer


Be clear in your communications
Not everyone speaks English as a first language.  I generally translate my emails into the native language using BabelFish and send it in English and in translated form.  Don’t use vernacular that may be difficult to understand and keep it short – they are busy too.


Be patient
Most vendors are very responsive but, with some, the process takes a little more time.  (I find I get figures within week from Europe on average.)  No one has had a horror story i.e. everyone is basically honest and doing their best.  If things seem to be taking time a polite follow up email generally does the trick.  Just don’t go overboard in asking questions.



Quality in a few cases is variable
At times knowing the engraver is helpful as a gauge of quality, having pictures on the site is definitely the best way to gauge what you will be receiving.


One easy way with a new vendor is to place a small order before a large one if you are nervous.


Postage can add significant cost
Most vendors are very careful to only charge what is absolutely necessary.  Books can drive the cost up dramatically.


One commercial vendor was noted for it’s large postal charges, if they seem out of line then it may be best to make another choice.  (Berliner Zinnfiguren normally adds a catalog with each order which drives the price up due to the book rate.  Make sure this is not included and you should be in better shape.)


Misc


Packaging
Seems to be a non-problem for folks, there is a traditional way of shipping flats – small cardboard boxes with cardboard between figures which seems generally followed.


Many vendors throw in a figure or two which is always a pleasant surprise.


Kulmbach
Again everyone would love to go but, it is not practical for all.  Again if this is the only option then partnering with someone on the list may be an option.  I did and it was great experience!


Just make sure not to provide them too long a list, be specific about what you want, options and price.  Also experience taught us Kulmbach has poor cell phone reception hence email is slow as well frome there, i.e. make decisions ahead of time




For those on the site willing to help
First of all bless you it is appreciated!  But, please don’t be careful – advice to go to Kulmbach or all vendors are great in their own way is not helpful for someone asking an honest question.


If you want to be entirely honest or believe a statement will offend a vendor then take it offline with the individual in question via a Private Message

[peter michael prow]

I gave up on flats a couple of years ago. I would see all of those beautifully engraved miniatures in the journal or galleries and not be able to get a single one  Settling for similar just doesnt inspire me to paint and ebay orders were invariably broken and as the solution to getting figures was always go to Kulmbach I just gave up.

I work as a sculptor/mouldmaker for a miniatures company that sells thousands of mininatures a day-I dont expect that degree of service-but I do expect a reply of soe description. especially when Im using  the editors own web order forms.

I do want to be a part of the hobby, join the society proper and attend shows, but once again Im becoming disenchanted because of the sheer hassle of ordering.
Is there something we could maybe do as a group, something that can help us guys struggling ?

[marko]

 This has become quite an interesting discussion which also seems to have a US view and a non-US view. 


Outside of the US people seem more forgiving of poor service or presentation given that many vendors are fellow hobbyist with flats as a secondary vocation.  In the US the trend definitely seems to be if you are going to take the trouble to have a web site and offer figures then at least respond to email and communicate otherwise why bother, you are just going to frustrate potential customers.


Also telling people to go to Kulmbach is not terribly helpful advice quite honestly – many of us do not have resources or time to make the pilgrimage though I suspect most of us would love to. 

Remember in the US flat figures are still somewhat unknown though that is changing.  We do not have large amount of hobby stores, miniature shows or magazines to start with such that most communication is via email or more frustratingly through postal mail.  It can be a long, frustrating process to make your way through the maze of vendors/currencies/figures.  I suspect this is true for much of the rest of the world as well.

Finally, getting that wonderful box in the mail full of little metal figures can be a challenge.  Even more so for some is the realization that most figures also have no color guidelines or instructions  is probably an additional surprise for some.  Again many of us do not have large libraries or wallets for such things.

Anyway I have received a large amount of excellent feedback which I will compile – any more would be helpful.  My intent is to produce a compendium of general results with recommendations as well as some advice to vendors without singling anyone out.

Mark  

P.S. And by the way, not surprisingly most feedback on vendors is positive.  We have many vendors going above and beyond to ensure a great experience.

[PJDeluhery]

I understand that some of these guys are not full time dealers, etc.; but frankly, I'm not interested in WHY they give crappy service or do not respond. As far as I'm concerned, there's no excuse for ignoring an order, poor service, or being difficult to deal with. Either you're in business or you're not. I don't need to trash them, but I WOULD like to avoid them. So maybe we need to set expectations here by listing what they will/will not do. For example, do they have a website, do they deal outside the Euro Zone, etc.

Clearly, they have the right to sell on whatever terms they choose. On the other hand, they will be judged by the marketplace on these terms.  I just think that we should provide the service of stating those terms so whomever deals with these folks knows the rules. Having had a bad experience or two, and of course being outside the Euro Zone, I stick to the major commercial and reliable sources. There are times I've avoided purchasing a figure or set because of who offers it. It would be nice to remove some of the doubt or at least know what to expect when dealing with someone.  If everybody gets a gold star, then the list is worthless, IMO.

The flats world is positively medieval when compared to the toy soldier world's production and marketing, where I have a lifetime of experience.  If we could do something here to encourage  bringing the flats world into a more modern mode, that would be a good thing.

[errant49]

My opinion is that a classification is not necessary
As Charles says, many (most?) of editors are just collectors who, some day, wanted to have there own figures
Many of them have an other job
The "commercial" ones are well known : Scholtz, Fechner, Ochel, Heinrichsen, Dangelmaier, Western Miniatures, SEGOM, Bock, Jupiter,and others
Usually there is no problem with these professionnals
Among the "amators" most can be trust
The only questions are about the way of ordering
Many of them do not have an internet site, which is not a non quality evidence; and many have paper catalogues you can buy
Some do not like to sell too small quantities too far away; so, group the orders; but then be patient because many of them do not have stock (except for Kulmbach!)
About the payment there is no problem in the euro zone; everybody can use the SEPA wiring; for US and GB paypal is the solution but some still don't use it
My final opinion is that there are so many opportunities to buy figures from good editors that it is not really necessary to care about the bad ones (if there really are any)
Any occasional problem can be exposed on one of the many existing forums
Just create a good relationship and everything will be OK
Eric

[blaster]

Hi All,
A list showing their internet presence is good enough. A rating system would only cause offence by either (i) negative inputs, (ii) lack of inputs or (iii) direct comparison with others.
I sometimes think that it is the lack of direct contact that creates misunderstanding. I actually tried to ring up a German editor once, got him and found out that he spoke only halting English. In the end, I managed to get some of his figures through another dealer.
I would think that the only correct and decent thing to do is to go to Kulmbach to get specific figures.

Rgds Victor

[Charles]

Peter
I understand your frustration, and I don't dispute it is worth knowing who responds and who doesn't.
I was pointing out that for many editors, selling small quantities of figures to a foreigner is not what they are about and I was wary of causing offence.
Regards
Charles

[Roger]

2D Figurines have what may be considered an professional website, but we are far from being professional some would say even good!! 

That's 5 *****'s for honesty Brian. 

[Brian]

2D Figurines have what may be considered an professional website, but we are far from being professional some would say even good!!     

We are just your common  enthusiasts 

 

[PJDeluhery]

Perhaps a rating system would work. No need to say anything overtly bad.
 
I kinda agree that we should not trash sellers, but I don't think we should enable them either.
 
How about a 1-5 rating on service, ease of dealing with them (e.g. webpage or not and ability to oprder from there) and maybe price or other factors. Criteria should be posted here.  Let the members fill in the blanks.

[peter michael prow]

Thats definitely fair if it is just an aenthusiast, sadly though Im finding my mails ignored by editors with professional websites-I dont want to say anything bad about anyone, but at the same time I want to be able to order the figures they themselves advertise for sale.
If for some reason they dont want to make a transaction, Thats fine, but it's a common courtesy to offer a short reply.
I received only two replies out of eight editors recently in request for catalogue or placing an
order, Im genuinely at a loss about how to get hold of the flat figures I like....