International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society
Flat Figures Painters Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Brian on September 27, 2014, 06:55:21 AM
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It has been suggested the at the big shows that 30mm figures should have a separate class in the comp's, what do you think and how about the old 30mm is it being left behind or is there still a place for them?
I have to admit that 2D do not sell a lot of these little guy's :-\
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I am still into 30mm ,considering any larger to be mutinous...at least until my eyeballs give out :'( :) :)
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Personally i am in the camp of the larger figures to paint.however when you see examples of 30mm sets they look amazing.At euro in the competion classes there was a lack of 30mm.What you did have were 2 classes for bas or resin figures.I say lump these into the general classes i cannot see the distinctions made when its how you paint.
If this was done a 30mm class could be created.you are not going to loose the larger flats they are to commercial.
you can repromote 30mm and give its rightful place the alternative is a decline not in personal collections but in thegeneral comps.
Dave S
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Hallo,
I think a lot of collectors of 30 mm flats have more than enough figures when they collected them many years.
You need some lives to paint them all.
I think you need young collectors and a good marketing with good engraved figures, good castings, good pictures and
nice pictures of good diorama´s. For example Glorious Empires has such a good marketing.
Then you must have this 30 mm figures, too.
It´s easier to build a diorama with 30 mm figures, because you can buy 300.000 figures with similar designs.
A flat in 54 or 100 mm is for your vitrine. But you can use a round figure for your vitrine, too.
Best regards
Michael
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My exposure to 30mm flats has been limited; I much prefer the larger scales. While there are diamonds in both, what I've seen so far is that 30mm generally seem to have less overall detail and less consistent detail than the larger scales - especially in faces. I've also noticed that the larger scales, given equal painting skills and painted in oils, tend to look better to the eye; especially to the uninitiated. Acrylics seem to have a more even playing field, but you are still painting a 30mm piece of variable detail.
All that said, I am curious as to the motivation/reasoning behind the suggestion to separate the 30mm out from the larger scales. Did someone walk away unhappy...? Another question, and alfsboy hinted at this, is there any data on the average age of the 30mm flat painter? My guess is that they would tend to be older and require magnification. I know I do... Painting the smaller scales could be increasingly problematic and forcing painters to go to larger sizes. Ergo, fewer 30mm pieces on the comp tables.
Now, whether this might be grounds for separating 30mm (and perhaps up to 45mm) from the larger scales depends, I think, on the judging system. An IPMS first, second, third style carves everything up into multiple categories divided by scale/size, era, subject, etc. and basically spreads things out. It shares the wealth among 40-50 categories. The open, variable number of gold, silver, bronze medal, system uses two basic categories - out of the box 'painters' and 'open' for heavily converted and scratch-built subjects. It tends to reward the painter based on a measured set of skills regardless of size, paint medium, era, etc. Scale is not a factor. Since there's no limit to how many medals can be awarded, one big category should be ok.
Glen
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I am in the camp that believes you should have a separate category for 30 mm. The approach is a bit different for 30 mm vs 54 mm in my mind and it is unfair to lump them together - similar to 1/72 vs. 1/32 in the figure world. (Or perhaps I should say my style is different given the level of detail being presented. One of the reasons I love Mike Taylor's work is he can has an exquisite level of detail whatever the size.)
To generalize much of the detail in 30 mm needs to be suggested vs. engraved in the larger sizes. Quite a trick to that which I for one am still learning.
Personally I am still a big fan of 30 mm having a couple of thousand in my stash and don't seem to take to larger figures as much but, that is very much personal taste. I find the eclectic nature of the 30 mm figures to be to my taste with such a wide variety to choose from. Where else can you find a Burgundian Wedding, Medieval Fire Fighters and a variety of camp scenes from multiple armies?
mark 8)
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Oh this is going to be fun and may ruffle a few feathers!!! ;D ;D ;D
Firstly, with regards the traditional Zinnfiguren and bas relief in different classes.
I think this is the correct option, however they are painted. Zinnfiguren are engraved, whereas Bas relief are sculptured, two different techniques, two classes.
I have tried painting Bas Relief figures and I have found up to date that the resin is not that sharp! and the figures are generally thicker. Engraving is by far a greater skill, and as with everything nowadays, the old master craftsmen are dying out, next we will be getting 3D flats, a drawing on a computer, done by machine! skill??? I don't think so. :(
A 30mm figure beautifully painted is in my opinion a far more satisfying and in a way, a more interesting object to look at, and sets are even better, Obviously I find a well engraved set ( mohr ) is much easier to paint than a blob!! and although painting them is nearly the same technique as a larger figure, it is a bit more difficult to get it looking right, especially with shadows etc.
And therefore, yes, I do think they should be in a class of their own, as it would encourage more artists to enter in competition. This year at Euro there were only 2 entries.
Small is beautiful ( well I would say that, everyone else is taller than me!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D )
To answer Glen, I recon the average age is around the 50 year Mark, but there are a couple of 20 something year olds that are exceptionally talented.
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Nick
Very interesting reply especially about the Resin Bas figures.As we have the ear of Euros chief judge over the next 4weeks if a concensus of opinion can be reached for Euro 2015 a better comp can be availiable.Especially to enhance the little fellows ie 30mm.
Euro offers 5 classes so merge the Bas relief into one class not two.Then make a 30mm class for singles and sets.
leave the rest as it is.
At Euro of the seven Golds only one was a 30mm.
30mm needs protecting for the future in this country.Euro is its showpage so for future painters collectors who dont go to the Europe shows it is their only vehicle.
Euro want us involved again next year so what better way for flats to sort their own agenda.
Promotion on the balcony was what we were about so we mustnt loose the momentum.
Dave S
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Instead of merging, why not just create a 30mm class?
however, if this was done, we would need it supported, 2 entries would look a bit daft!!! :D
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Nick
we can ask Geoff but increasing the number of classes would probably be frowned upon.
As to support this would be done.For example you and brian could fill a table on your own.
If we advise members we have more than ample time to get painted models.Also members must have collections.
Dave
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worth asking, I'm sure room can be found ;)
yes plenty of time. I'm painting up 2 things at the moment!! ;D ;D ;D
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Nick
I will let you know outcome of what will be permissable
Dave
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Ooh... feather ruffling. My favorite! ;)
I'm not sure what this is really about now; the lack of 30mm's overall at comps or the lack of medals awarded to 30mm?
Are 30mm pieces lumped in with larger scales/sizes as a single flat class? Will having a separate class/category increase the number of 30mm in the comp or simply result in a table with a lot of empty space? Figure out why 30mm is under-represented first. God knows, single piece 30mm flats are certainly cheap, but compare the level of detail - the paintability (especially for newcomers) - combined with subject and people might feel the need to go larger even if it's more expensive.
Nick, I can see bas-relief and demi-round pieces being in a separate class as they are very close to rounds in their three-dimensionality. I've never considered them as being flat; only the front half of a round. Personally (uh-oh), I don't think their means of production should have anything to do with it. But, I'm a rebel... 8)
Resin versus metal flats is separate issue. I've seen and painted resin flats where the painted relief is every bit as 'flat' as the metal pieces. The increased thickness is on the back side, hence neither painted nor visible. The thickness is there to ease casting and prevent warping. My own sheet plastic base and sculpted putty relief flats are also a case in point. I take great pains to keep them in the realm of flat versus bas-relief. Once they are painted and mounted, the means of production is no visible to the eye.
I would agree that engraving in slate is a skill, but - to me - only a different skill set versus someone sculpting a highly detailed 80mm round figure versus someone doing the same level of detail in a 30mm gaming mini. In all cases, these are learned skills; like painting. Which leads me to...
I've come to realize that painting flats isn't necessarily more difficult; it's just different. The tools, paints, and the mechanics of painting are the same whether you use oils, hobby enamels, or acrylics. Choosing a well engraved, reasonably detailed flat is the first task. Pre-planning in terms of light direction, highlights, and shadows are the second and I find this to be somewhat neglected - even among people who paint flats on a regular basis. Some people try to paint flats like they paint their rounds only to be disappointed. I did that, then started to look at well painted pieces, reading about techniques, and doing some analysis. Instant better. Still not as good as I wanted, but better than I expected.
Dave, I don't think '30mm needs protecting' is the way to go. Protecting implies entrenchment and maintaining the status quo. Perhaps 'promotion' might be a better word - and strategy. With that in mind, and on the assumption that this is not being done already, display a selection of official BFFS recommended 30mm flats for newcomers to get at the next show. Well detailed and well cast are musts. Show a variety of makers. Show a variety of subjects - various historical eras, sci-fi, fantasy, etc. Tell them where to get them. Show them painted pieces and explain why one piece is artistically better than another. Encourage them to ask questions by registering for the BFFS forums. Promote the flat hobby in general (as you all do already) and the 30mm side in particular, but be open-minded to the individual's interests.
Cheers,
Glen
(Not a collector, unless it's boobs, butts, and battle-axes. Woof!)
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Hi Glen,
I meant no offence with my comments, anyone who can engrave, sculpt or mould already has the better of me ;) and I appreciate the talent you need to do this.I don't dislike the method, just some of the subjects, which is true of engraved pieces too really!!! :-X
30mm don't get the credit they deserve at shows, but there is usually one or two per show that get awarded medals so we can't complain, but I feel they do need to be painted exceptionally well to have a remote chance.
30mm are dying out, which is a shame, perhaps if they got more popular at shows then engravers would start producing some really nice sets, like Faust, or Casanova.
boobs and butts arn't really my thing modelling wise, but again I appreciate the wonderful painting some of them inspire.
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As an old collector and painter of flats I will give my opinion about this topic
I would first say that the world of flats cannot be reduced to competitions
Most of collectors do not compete and many painters do not intend to; competition is particular with particular rules which you have to
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A bug !!!!
I was writing : "particular rules you have to accept if you want to win something; no rules to collect or paint for pleasure
I do not agree when you say 30mm are dying or need protection; just go to Kulmbach and you will see thousands of 30mm flats and hundreds of collectors
About the "paintability" I do think 30mm are not harder to paint than higher scales; tha way and purpose are different; higher scales allows more details which become most important but do not forgive any mistakes; the main purpose of a 30mm is volume first
In competitions I do not feel that special 30mm classes would help; if I remember well the nicest flat which won a gold in the individual figure class was a 30mm (Bonaparte crossing the Alpes); and I can attest it was better than any other big scale in the competition
At last I feel that all those disputes are intellectual masturbation
Just follow your pleasure, collect and paint big scales or 30mm, compete or do not compete, but please ENJOY IT
Eric
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Nick don't worry about it :-\ If they get there underwear in a wedge over it they have plenty of time to pull them out and get over it ??? . I my self did not know that 30 mm where going the way of the DO DO :( I bet it you where to ask clubs around the world what they thought or could come up with it will be all different ??? I look at it this way as long as I can get figures and my wife dose not throw me out of the house or the floor caves in under all the weight of Tin I will keep painting and entering figures ;D This is what we have to do we have to make people want to take up the hobby of painting flats and make them feel that they are in a very unique hobby :o Willie
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actually I think my use of words here were a bit confused, like me really!!! ;D ;D ;D
Do you ever feel you are on a roundabout going round in circles, and every time you get off, you tend to step on another!!! foot in ones mouth also comes to mind!! ;D ;D ;D
what I actually meant was as we are all getting older and our eyesight is not what is was, then we are tending to see larger scales, as they are easier to paint.I certainly need to make an effort to paint 30mm, although once done I get great satisfaction from them.
seeing them in competitions or at Kulmbach, just urges me to paint more. Hense I am now painting Mohr's 'The Broom Seller' which I couldn't resist at Euromilitaire ;)
I'll shut up now!!! ;D ;D ;D NUUUURRRSE!!!
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very very interesting the comments over what is a Uk issue.Eric is spot on with his comments I wish we had a Kumblach.Unfortunately we have Euro only plus a scattering of local shows that are predominately round figures or Tanks.
So our showcase here is Euro we have 5 classes in 38 or something like.So the 5 classes are essential to show us along with a display in another area of the show.Only 2d were selling flats so if we are to encourage new interest we must make the best use of what is availiable here.Nobody was talking about medals and Glen is probably correct the word to use is promote.
Personally I would love to see a say convention here with no competition but this is probably way off.It will come down to Euro again in2015 with probably the same issues discussed again afterwards.At least we are having the dialogue which is positive.
Dave
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Nick, no offen[c/s]e taken.
If 30mm is dying out, is it because the same old pieces, regardless of quality, are still being cranked out? Time, technology, and, of equal importance, painter's expectations, have evolved over the years. The level of sculpting and metallurgy in rounds has improved dramatically over the past two decades or so. I think the introduction of crisp and highly detailed resin figures forced the metal-based sculptors and manufacturers to seriously up their game. No one is looking back. I can't remember the last time I saw Valiant, IR, or New Hope Designs on a contest table. They may be out of production, but there's plenty in the bottom of painter's closets (trust me...). With the exception of some of the newer Trost releases, I haven't really seen that qualitative increase in the flat arena - in any scale. Additionally, the level of painting skills at shows has also increased dramatically. While it's possible someone could turn a 30mm sow's ear into a silk purse, I don't think they want to deal with the frustration, hence poor participation at shows.
Another thing I've noticed is that while 30mm covers all historical and other genres - fantasy, sci-fi, etc. - the small scale figure market here in the US is solidly in the camp of round fantasy gaming minis. The young (and some not so young) people painting these figures have little or no idea of, or interest in, the Napoleonic era, the Thirty Year's War, or the armies of Frederick the Great. Is that the case in Europe? If so, why hasn't the flat 'industry' tried to make inroads into that market?
Eric, you are absolutely correct about painting and collecting for pleasure. I think hobbies are the one thing in life where it is all about the individual - you paint what you want, when you want, to the degree of satisfaction you want. Everything else is secondary. Also, it's my understanding that Kulmbach is a flat specific gathering. It would seem natural that there would lots of vendors, flats, and collector/painters. Where are they at other shows? Surely flat enthusiasts go to other shows, yes? And X2 - ENJOY IT.
Glen
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I've always looked on 30mm flats or flats in general as a tiny Germanic specific minority interest .One of the worlds smallest hobbies .Its very flatness make painting them a challenge. The fact that few manage to paint them or enter them in competitions is frankly an irrelevence as I doubt most commissioners of flats think about the financial aspects of it or its place in the market .Its a hobby and seems thankfully to be staying that way .As I dont go to shows or enter competitions the competitive aspect doesnt matter to me.I have won competitons but for rond boss year ago . Most producers plough their own path it seems, disregarding "the market' . Its a shrinking art.I believe.The internet has completely changed most hobbies and now at least you can actually get most items now the easy way .In the eighties the only guy i knew painting flats was Jim Woodley.I went to Kulmbach to buy what I wanted usually selling my painted flats to pay for the trip.I have no problem with some larger size flats though some of them are very iffy anatomy and quality wise.I just dont think the fact they are popular with some means 30 mm is finished .Its just that most collectors and artists are probably keeping quiet as they have always done ..mainly in Germany i should think ....incidently one reason I loved flats was the fact that most were high quality with good anatomy .A 28 mm wargame figure stinks on the anatomy front but is popular with thousands so another reason to ignore the bleats of the popularista
Incidentally I do sculpt and produce my own range of 42 mm rond boss figures for motorsport called TRACKPASS MINIATURES So I am not a complete flathead.
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I will agree with Glen on this one, The size is not so much the issue as all you have to do is go to Pinterest and check out the 28mm warhammer and/or 40k figures and equipment, very well painted in small scale with beautiful artistic vision. Unfortunately "tradition" is a dying idea in our modern world and people are obsessed with the new and do not know or could care less about history. The "art of the Flat" in general and 30mm specifically is lost on the new generations, though I have seldom met a person unfamiliar with 30mm flats that doesn't have a "Wow"! reaction to there first viewing of a beautifully painted figure .
The hobby is not promoted in any way and product is difficult to purchase in relation to other hobbies, I see no reason why flat could not be a viable gaming option but I believe the subjects would have to be updated, then you would see the Art side grow in interest.
just my humble opinion,
Ray
Nick, no offen[c/s]e taken.
If 30mm is dying out, is it because the same old pieces, regardless of quality, are still being cranked out? Time, technology, and, of equal importance, painter's expectations, have evolved over the years. The level of sculpting and metallurgy in rounds has improved dramatically over the past two decades or so. I think the introduction of crisp and highly detailed resin figures forced the metal-based sculptors and manufacturers to seriously up their game. No one is looking back. I can't remember the last time I saw Valiant, IR, or New Hope Designs on a contest table. They may be out of production, but there's plenty in the bottom of painter's closets (trust me...). With the exception of some of the newer Trost releases, I haven't really seen that qualitative increase in the flat arena - in any scale. Additionally, the level of painting skills at shows has also increased dramatically. While it's possible someone could turn a 30mm sow's ear into a silk purse, I don't think they want to deal with the frustration, hence poor participation at shows.
Another thing I've noticed is that while 30mm covers all historical and other genres - fantasy, sci-fi, etc. - the small scale figure market here in the US is solidly in the camp of round fantasy gaming minis. The young (and some not so young) people painting these figures have little or no idea of, or interest in, the Napoleonic era, the Thirty Year's War, or the armies of Frederick the Great. Is that the case in Europe? If so, why hasn't the flat 'industry' tried to make inroads into that market?
Eric, you are absolutely correct about painting and collecting for pleasure. I think hobbies are the one thing in life where it is all about the individual - you paint what you want, when you want, to the degree of satisfaction you want. Everything else is secondary. Also, it's my understanding that Kulmbach is a flat specific gathering. It would seem natural that there would lots of vendors, flats, and collector/painters. Where are they at other shows? Surely flat enthusiasts go to other shows, yes? And X2 - ENJOY IT.
Glen
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Dear all,
I think there are some misunderstandings about flats.
Originally - i.e. from 1850 to 1950 - flats were not painted in an elaborate way. They were used basically that way the 1/72 plastic or pewter models are used today : To build large armies, for wargaming or to build Dioramas. There were very very few painters notably initially Douchkine, Kemnow or Glaser who painted differently. But most collectors of flats don´t paint to "exhibition standard" but large numbers !
Consequently the Kulmbach fair offers a "competition" on painted flats only from about 200x onwards but never before.
Today the number of flats collectors is probably decreasing but there are many younger collectors in Germany who use the now much extended range of 1/72 instead of flats. 30 years ago these would have collected flats.
BTW there is a 20mm range of flats which has been very popular 40 or 50 years ago but rarely meets any interest today.
Actually when collectors grow older they intend to move from "plain soldiers" to more complex historical or civilian subject. And there is only one prominent range of "scale figures" that offers more of these subjects than any other existing range of miniatures - 30mm flats.
So I believe they will stay popular but 30mm flats are probably not the first choice for a "painters contest" as not being meant for that purpose.
Best regards
Alexander
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All quite true Alexander. I often tell people small flats were the original war-gaming miniatures and consequently mass production painting was the norm versus high quality stand-alone display pieces. That is still true today, even in the 28-30mm mini gaming pieces. The difference is that mini manufacturers realized a growing demand for detail that matched larger scale figures and responded accordingly.
That said, attitudes within the 30mm world are slowly changing; more people (likely still a minority) want to enter them in comps, but are stymied by an overall lack of quality versus the larger scale flats and rounds. This makes 30mm entries at comps a bit thin. There are exceptions. The two most notable to me are Wolfgang's ACW series (last years BFFS painting project) and this years BFFS Thirty Years War project - also IIRC from Wolfgang in which I painted a horse for the first time in 35 years. I thought all of these pieces were very well done. The collaboration on the 45mm Napoleonic Pin-up Girls is another and I'm looking forward to more.
In light of the above, there are a number of roads available for the future; e.g. people just start painting pieces for the comps and rely on their painting skills to make the difference on a stock figure. Learn to improve detail with whatever they have on hand, then rely on their painting skills. Hope the makers see a potential market and pick up the gauntlet, so to speak. And, in a final measure of desperation, learn to draw, engrave, and cast their own flats. There is another way of course (and this was alluded to in an earlier post) and that is computer-generated art and 3D printing. A number of round figure companies are already well involved in making figures in various sizes and genres. This is an anathema to some in both the round and flat worlds, but it's here and it's not going away. :o
Tired now. Later...
Glen
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While I agree with much of this the belief that detail is lacking in 30 mm figures is simply not true as far as the best engavers are concerned. Having been knee deep in Mohr figures of late it is quite stunning the detail present with clear expressions, jewerly, embroidery on clothing and medals.
Now bringing out the detail can be a challenge but, as in figures of all sizes there are makers/engavers of all skills levels. There are beatifully engraved 30s from years ago that are as skillful and beautiful as anything engaved today. A first rate painter can still make a masterpiece but, they are usually starting with a well engraved figure as well.
mark 8)
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I have been out of the game so long I am relearning everything .
When I went to Kulmbach for the first time in 1975 there were few high quality painted.In fact it seemed to be frowned on by many collectors though my painted stuff sold quickly and for a high price .I always thought the quality of many flats was better than many rond boss figures which is one reason I love flats .The movement and camp scenes ,etc are huge fun and well done for the most part .The 28 mm wargame figures seem to be based on the original Minifigs 25 mm figures and the anatomy and proportion is an insult and still is .The fact they are popular is neither here nor there .Thomas Kinkaid was popular.I rest my case.
I remember painting lots of 20 mm flats for Under Two Flags .I think Franco Prussian war and some 30 years war .Lovely little figures .no idea who made them .I know that 20mm figures are now very popular in Europe and the Valdmar figures are superb .
I think there are some superb flats out ther and some stunning painters .The Glorious Empires .Mignot ,and many of the companies who are on on here make some great figures that are inspirational .The fact somethings popular doesnt make it right ,it just makes it profitable .
Martin
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Just found this discussion, and most of my points have already been made. I'd simply add that as long as the contest/competition is under the Open System (Gold, Silver, Bronze) there is really no need for a separate category for 30mm figures. Thirties can and should be able to compete on an artistic level with anything larger or smaller. Putting them in a separate category may make them stand out or easier to find on a large table; but a 30mm lead sinker (stinker?? ;D ) is no better or worse than an 70mm lead sinker, and should be judged accordingly.
My big lesson from years of contests is: Find a way to make your piece stand out and get noticed. Presentation is everything. This can be done in any scale.
I don't do 30s only because I do not see that well anymore. I expect this is a big problem for us older folks. But the younger folks may find them when they tire of the current crop of round fantasy figures. Of course having some fantastic 30 mm flat fantasy figures would not hurt at all.
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Hi, I've tried to wright something a few times but just scrubbed it out!! it's good what I read and I think we don't have to worry to much about the 30mm at the moment, getting new painters and collectors is what I think we should be looking at, if this is fantasy then maybe that the way to go, we'll still have the classic figures for us old guys.
Would it have to be the figures the younger lads are all ready using in gaming or would it be back to classic work like "Lord of he Rings" style figures ? no worries about copy right we're just talking.
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Thinking off the cuff here, but perhaps an official BFFS/IFFS reader (not just member) poll is in order? You can start with an assumption that most if not all of the respondents will collect, paint, or do both.
Make the questions as direct as possible, i.e Do you collect flats? Y/N. Nebulous questions give nebulous answers and nebulous answers don't provide meaningful data. Ask about scales/sizes, genres (historical eras alone could be several questions), painting mediums, entering contests, club membership, etc., but don't get bogged down in minutiae, i.e. Do you prefer flats to facing left or right when at the present arms position? L/R.
Post the poll on the reader forums (or a separate link on the BFFS site and set it up so that any figure-oriented hobbyist can respond without having to register on the forums), but I would also suggest that the poll also be posted on other figure sites such as Planet Figure, Timelines, etc. Just remember to ask to respondents to only one fill out one poll or simply direct them to the aforementioned separate link. Allow at least 30 days to collect data.
And don't forget to ask about pinup girls... 8)
Glen
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The answer is nothing at all - just a matter of preference and taste.
I believe the original observation was the lack of 30 mm in shows these days which sounds like it may depend on which show one attends but, there does seem to be a leaning towards the large scale these days.
Either way a lot to choose from in either scale and plenty of examples on this site for both.
mark 8)
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No "Them and Us" just friendly conversation, and "big" ones!! paint more of them then 30mm , and as for resin!!! I also paint and sell them all the time ;) photo of one that on the table now, it' s not 30mm ;D ;D
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There is room for everyone .Size is preference not a necessity, at for least painting flats .
Anyone who wants a totally 3d version of that figure for a cheap price should wait until MasterBox, a Ukranian plastic kit company ,bring out their 1/32 plastic kit of it soon .I have their lancer and Hussar and they are very good indeed .I assume Mr Putin will let them have enough gas to melt the plastic to mould ;D
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Here an extreme example for a combination of big round figures, 54 mm 3-D figures and small 30 mm flats.
In the foreground you see clay-built figures with clothes of textile. In the middle of the Diorama there are 54 mm rounds and
in the backround there are hundreds of flats crossing a river.
Rudolf Zellner, a famous german collector and painter in the 60´s created 22 Dioramas for the "Marienwerk" in Altötting,
where they show the history of pilgrimage there.
The diorama shows a scene 1648 in the 30-years-war.
best regards
Michael
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Referring to my last post I have a new idea for combination big and small flats.
Napoleon´s retreat from Moscow (Heinrichsen, Scholtz, Alexander Baden, etc.) in the backround and a big flat
like the new curassier in the foreground.
But then you need a new class for competitions like "combination"...
Michael
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Hi
Just adding a thought to this
I paint the larger flats be they metal or resin
The 30mm flats seem to be sets or vignettes
where as the larger flats are stand alone subjects and for me that is their appeal
I have some 30mm sets in the collection.... But Jupiter keep bringing out such
nice pieces ... wonder if I will ever get round to the 30mm stuff
I like the cuirassier and will eventually get hold of one
Frank
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Hello Michael! The use of various sized figures is not uncommon and is employed most often in larger dioramas where there is a single, controlled point of view (like a box diorama). The technique of using large figures in the foreground, medium-sized figures in the middle, and small figures in the background, narrowing roads and paths, altering the walls and roof angles on buildings and graying out colors with distance is known as forced (or forcing the) perspective. No need for a separate category as they are all just dioramas.
Cheers,
Glen
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I really do not see this discussion as "us vs. them". The beauty of flats is that we all do different styles, scales and subjects; and it's all good! We are a brotherhood (including the Ladies!) of artists, and passionate about what we do. Why do we all have to do the same thing? What fun would that be?
I don't hold with the opinion of "Anything that is not metal or not X scale, (etc, etc,) is not a "true flat." While there are those with such opinions, and I respect them; we're all entitled to our own views on the subject. There is room for everyone. I would only object if someone began forcing his views on others: e.g. only 30mm may be shown or judged or not judged. I don't see anything close to that happening here.
My advice is this: If you feel 30mm's are ignored, then paint some outstanding figures, present them in a dynamic way, and display them at shows and elsewhere. I think we are all influenced by what we see at shows, and you may start grabbing the attention you wish.
I certainly appreciate 30mm's, respect the artistry involved, and have painted some in my day; but I just find them too hard to see. I think much of the show audience has this problem, so consider this in your display. For example, display them on a stand at eye level, provide a magnifying media of some kind, etc. Who knows, you may star a whole new trend?
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X2 PJ. Seriously...
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Latest 30mm painted by me, great figures from Wolfgang Bock
I have to confess I was one of the guys that said flats can only be tin and 30mm is the only size to have, still love the 30mm but more open minded now ::) if it good I'll have it!!