International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society
Flat Figures Painters Forum => Techniques => Topic started by: errant49 on August 24, 2013, 11:47:42 AM
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Hello !
I'm back after a very good Kulmbach followed by a wonderful sun on the Opal Coast; I'll talk about that somewhere else in the forum
My purpose here is to make you wonder about the use of metallic or oil colours for metals
Our friend Gian Paolo wrote about that in the Journal and at Kulmbach i had the opportunity of buying some Douchkine figures, painted this way as he used to do
Years ago (in the 80's) I painted with metallics; I then followed the "up to date" way with the influence of Walter Fisher and Mike Taylor
But I have to confess I never was totally convinced
I think that silver or gold metals could be paint with metallics and silver or god laces or fabrics could be paint with oil
I join two pictures of four different figures
The first one shows TYW lancers : the standing one is paint with oil; the galoping with metallics
The second one shows two figures both painted with metallics for metals and oil for laces and fabrics
Now what do you think ???
Eric
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There is obviously a bit more brightness to the metallic figure, but on the whole, they do appear to be the roughly the same. Maybe the photo's have something to do with it, and to actually see both put togeather by eye would make a vast difference. As you have the figures, Do the metallics look vastly different from the oil ones?
There are those who feel happy to use metallics and those who think it is all wrong, personnally I think everyone should do what they prefer. No right, No wrong. I would judges figures on how well they were painted, not the medium used.
If you are going to make a point about using metallics, then you could say, should flats be painted in Acrylic???
I have the best of both worlds, I use Acrylic oil paint!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
I am currently trying to paint the Brass coal scuttle on Tweedledee's head, using oil paint-- can I get the colour right? NO ;D ;D ;D
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Always an interesting debate….
While I too fall into there is no right approach it seems to be a matter of taste…I seem to lean towards the oils only approach. Metallics always seem to jarring when you view them close up. However, as Douchkine and you are proving Eric they can be used to beautiful affect.
I have a few of Jim Woodley's figures where he uses oils to beautiful affect to simulate steel. Sadly despite a large number of knights I am still just pushing paint and am not quite happy with the results yet. Coincidentally I am working on some Segom knights of the Golden Fleece today.
Mark 8)
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You'r right Nick
The photos reduce the differences a lot
At real sight the brightness of metallics is really interesting
Anyway it's a question of taste
Eric
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Someone will probably put me right here, but I was lucky enough to get a few of Jim Woodleys half painted chariots when he passed and these were painted in metallic's. Therefore, did he use this as a base for the oil paint to brighten them up???
I may try this, it sounds interesting ;)
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Dear Eric,
of course anybody can do as he likes, but to my opinion metallic paints can sometimes be more convincing than "painted" metal.
As "painting" metal is far more time consuming than using (shaded) metallic paints my personal preference is going today more to the second method. Nevertheless I have (some time ago) been "painting" metal, too.
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Can I throw in polishing armour before priming the figure,just priming the un armoured bits and then a thin clear/black/blue coat with perhaps some subtle highlighting over the armour .I dont have many painted flats now as sold a whole load in the eighties so cant give you an example.
Martin
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Well, first off, I'm with Nick. Use whatever makes you happy and is pleasing to your eye. Acrylics, oils, printer's inks, hobby enamels - they're all good.
Eric, when you say "I think that silver or gold metals could be paint with metallics and silver or god laces or fabrics could be paint with oil", are the 'metallics' metallic oil, enamel, or acrylic paint? I'm just not clear here...
I started off using Humbrol, Pactra, and Testors enamels on what few figures I painted back in the 70s. After a long hiatus, I picked it up again in the late 90s - maybe about 2000 - using Humbrol, but switched to Andrea acrylics shortly thereafter (another story). I found the Andrea paints acceptable for most applications except their metallics. They were thick, lumpy and didn't seem to brush very well. Thinning them just seemed to make the pigments settle out faster. They also tended to settle rapidly in the bottle where the pigments would fuse into a nearly unmovable mass. I discovered Vallejo acrylics were better and augmented my Andrea stash with them. I picked up on Reaper acrylics about 5-6 years ago and haven't looked back. I use the metallic acrylics for chain mail and yellow metals without issue. For white metal plate armor and weapons' blades, I buff the metal with a motor-tool, a napped buffing drum, and jeweler's rouge. The polished metal is then stained with black-brown oil paint, which is allowed to sit for about 15 minutes before being wiped off. Areas that catch more light are buffed more and have more of the oil paint wiped off. There have been exceptions, but I generally stick with these techniques for rounds and flats from 54mm and up. That's just me...
Over the years, I've seen no shortage of beautifully painted metals (along with an assortment of clunkers) using both metallic paints and/or non-metallic metal (NMM) techniques. I don't generally attribute this to the medium, but rather the painter's skill in using the medium at that time. As we all know, there is no substitute for picking up a brush and practicing. Where the medium itself might into play depends on the quality of paint and the size of the metallic pigments in the paint. Large-grained pigments give the metal a grainy look (another issue with Andrea*). The smaller the pigment, the less grainy the end result (one reason why printer's inks were so popular). Pigment size is magnified on smaller scales - paint that looks fine on 70mm pieces may not look so good on 30mm pieces.
As for NMM techniques - using an assortment of grays, blues, and white to render white metals and browns, yellows, and white to render yell metals, my mental jury is still out. For the most part, when properly done (practice, remember), it looks fine, my eye sees metal, but my brain sees 'paint'. It's not metal, but a rendering of metal, much like you would see if an artist was rendering an illustration of sword blade - or a chrome car bumper. To my eye, well-executed NMM works best on 30mm pieces.
I suppose I could blab on some more, but it's after 5 PM and dinner is calling. I am never late for dinner...
Peace out, yo
Glen
;)
*It should be noted that after I stopped using Andrea, they apparently improved the manufacturing formula/process. I have not used the new paints.
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I,m 100% NM on flats off any size, the rendition of a well painted simulated NM effect is what flats and there effect is all about for me. But on round figure i differ depends on the size and effect. what i find on flats without sounding wrong is the effect of simulated metals, OK this to some can be done in printed inks etc, but it looks to my eye as flat! nmm is hard to achieve but worth the effect IMHO, look at the work of artists like Rembrant etc. At Kulmbach i was so taken back with the work of Roland Simon, check his NMM effects on flats, Now tell me you can do that with Printers ink etc
you cant! that to me is the metal effect I personally like to see in flat form, but every one has his own ideas of what is right, practice and practice is what it takes the simple mix of colours and observation is
what it is all about for me but again that's just my opinion!
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Like Nick I bought some flats from Jim Woodley's collection. Some of them were fully or part painted using metallic gold. I have to say the effect was not good, the metal areas had a totally different quality to them which made them stand out from the general effect of the figure, almost not a part of it, which detracted from the harmony of the finished item. I will be persevering with the non-metallic paints myself.
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Well as a brilliant painter!!!! ::) ;D ;D ;D I am doing the serving platter and lid on Tweedledum and Tweedledee and using oil, not metallics.
I thought I was doing OK until my daughter came in and said " why have you painted them grey!!!!"
When I said it was silver she just looked at me and burst out laughing!!!!! :-[ :-[
Baby step's, Baby step's ------- it'll be fine ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Remember : children always tell the truth !
Eric
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Bo**ocks !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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what colours are you using on your metals Nick? i find, transparent colours work better on brass and yellow metals. Rembrant transparent oxide yellow's superb stuff mixed with various browns and even green! you can get a nice spectrum of colours,For white metal the more blue you put into the mix the more crome the finish will be, i start with flake white and add various darks in paynes grey/ and a tad of Prussian blue, little daps at a time, even the adding of colbolt violet works as well, depends what effects your after.. but I'm sure your get there!
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Hi Nick. You are lucky she could have laugh at you and then asked for money and the keys to the car ;D. I agree with you it is what makes you happy in painting. Remember metal needs to be polished everyday. Now for any former Royal and US Navy member in the Club. Its Brass O for all. I want to see my face in that Bell sailor ::) Willie
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Funny you should say that Willie, she said she'd give me lessons for exactly those 2 things!!!! :o :D :D :D :D :D :D
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I agree with Jerry and the painted metals (NMM) group. I have not seen (which I hasten to add does not mean it does not exist!!) a figure painted in metals that stands up to one painted with the NMM technique. By "seen" I mean "seen in person." Pictures can fool the eye, and I have a hard time separating the ones below - which I'm sure look quite different in person. To me, the "reality" of the metal finish looks odd when compared to the painted finish on the rest of the piece.
Also, I agree that it is not necessarily the technique alone, as the use and mastery of the technique, that makes a difference. I dare say an accomplished artist could use either and render a masterpiece.
That said, do what pleases you.
Nick, just tell your daughter that silver is just shiny gray! ...and ....Hang on to those car keys, amigo!!