International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society
Flat Figures Painters Forum => Newbie Section => Topic started by: marko on January 14, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
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As another thread has indicated there is quite a range of opinions on purchasing flats. But, what if you are a novice? Imagine you are a young individual just starting out on your flat career. You are full of potential but, don't know where to go and have limited financial resources.
So what do you do? If you are careful you will look through the links and review the Editors with online catalogs and find a period and figures that are of interest. However, in many cases it still leads to many unanswered questions.
Many of the web sites are not entirely clear or easy to utilize. With what information that is presented a good drawing or the name of an engraver may not be very helpful In both cases ordering is a bit of a leap in the dark. There is no the Art of the Tin Figure to purchase anymore. There are no figure magazines with a great deal of coverage left.
Even more confusing for the novice - ironically this time - is the sheer range of choice online. Ignoring the vendors without an online presence there is a huge range of options to choose from. If you have the misfortune to choose the Napoleonic Wars then what does one choose? Choices abound.
Finally, unlike models and 3d figures where most of us come from most flat figures have no colored directions to follow.
Without some wise advice it is indeed a tough set of decisions to make.
As such I am proposing a new project for our members with some basic advice on all of the above called the:
The Flat Figure Novice
I am proposing we jointly put together some helpful advice, links and tips with the goal of putting it on this site as a FAQ for those interested as well as being suitable for printing. (The thought is a little along the lines of Martin's Flat Figure compendium.)
So starting at the beginning as it where, what is some advice - links - tips for those starting out?
mark 8)
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The biggest problem for a beginner is the actual ordering process.
Maybe advice, or even an introduction system whereby a trusted customer could contact a vendor on behalf of the beginner?
Most people, especially younger painters will instantly be put off by being ignored, so advice on contacting would be nice.
Personally I dont think it's the problem of the vendor to supply any painting details, Theres a wealth of uniform books and online resources-research is a big part of the fun, but maybe a uniformology section on here where people can ask questions would be a nice beginners resource
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maybe a uniformology section on here where people can ask questions would be a nice beginners resource
Good idea, that would be a nice resource for everyone not just the beginner. I'm sure most of us have built up reasonable reference libraries so it might also be a good idea to add our interests/expertise to our signatures.
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Ask! that's all you have to do ;) I have the ear of some editors, not all but some. ask on the forum and someone has info your after, a lot of editors will not sell to people they don't know as it is not a business.
I can not see the harm in giving painting guides, good idea for military but when you have hundreds of figure types where do you start :o
Thing to remember is when you place your order with a lot of editors you will have to wait, figures are not always in "stock" and have to be cast and sent to the editor by a third party (only a few editors cast there figures) before they can get them to you ;)
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For sure, it would be a waste of time trying to cover the bases with a range of military uniform guides, but a thread inviting questions to people like me who enjoy the research (and have far to many books lying idle ;) ) could be good?
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I for one would be very grateful for this, I'm hopeless at finding reference material :(
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Yes, I totally agree. A reference section would be great ;)
In my last post on here I painted a rather gloomy outlook for getting figures, editors won't sell to people they don't know, it's not as bad as it reads. Most editors are happy to correspond first and then take an order, they just want to make sure you are a collector.
So don't be put off on your first attempt in contacting an editor, tell him you're interest and saying your part of the BFFS helps.
One more thing, nearly forgot, its a good idea to have your mail in English and German or French, whatever the language of the country your sending to. It just shows politeness.
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Hello Brian,
Happy new year.
Just a reply to your comment about asking for help contacting editors... well I'm asking! :)
I don't want to look like a newcomer making waves (I'm not-I was painting three decades ago with figures from Western) but I am getting disheartened and need a little help.
I gave up with flats three years ago, basically because I just couldn't get the figures I liked, while all the time other members were ordering and receiving beautiful figures, the only advice I was getting was "go to Kulmbach" which wasn't much help.....
I'm painting again now, but unfortunately the editors who sell the figures I love and inspire me to paint (Kieler, Neckel and Wunsch) do not reply to me. However they DO all invite email enquiries and orders via their website. My messages are properly translated and polite, the orders neither tiny or monumental and as I say, I'm not pestering them-they offer a catalogue and a service.
Also, I would like to get the Glorious Empires sets I'm missing-Jacques hasn't responded, Glorious Empires were very good in the past, is this no longer a going concern?
So what do I do Brian? all I want to do is paint great toy soldiers and participate in the group again, how can I break the ice with these editors, or is there a way of ordering through someone else at least?
So what must I do?
Thanks for your time,
Happy painting
Peter
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For my part, anyone who wants any advice on French Napoleonics or 18th century fell free to ask for painting advice. I have more books than Waterstones and will be happy to bore your ears off with it all :))))
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For my part, anyone who wants any advice on French Napoleonics or 18th century fell free to ask for painting advice. I have more books than Waterstones and will be happy to bore your ears off with it all :))))
That's good to know. ;)
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Hi Mark,
It's a very good idea :) :) It's not easy for novices to begin to paint flats tin figures and perhaps it will be a project to edit an advice's book with severals languages for example : English, german and french as it's the case for a lot of book of an german editor (I don't remember his name this evening excuse me). What do you thing about this ?
isabelle
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FWIW, Konrad Schulte has numerous CDs of uniform plates at pretty reasonable prices. Not sure what you're looking for here, but here's the link:
http://www.fredericus-rex.de/Uniform-CD-s/
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Peter, I may be able to help with Kieler and Wunsch but Neckel I thought were supplied by several editors now, what are you after?
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I think a big help for a newcomer to flats might be advice on how to get the best out of oils. Chances are that they have discovered flats via military or fantasy modelling which is almost always done with acrylic paint.
Oils are very different-transparencies,glazing etc and require much re learning (which is fun but also daunting)
Im learning the hard way and getting through lots of paint stripper ...
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I was under the impression that all the Neckel Napoleonics had been sold to Scholtz, including the Frank figures. Peter, I would check the Scholtz (Berliner Zinnfiguren) online catalogue, the downside is that they don't sell single figures, just boxes which often contain duplicates.
Charles
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As far as I know, Charles is right with the Neckel Napoleonics.
Scholtz has a "detailed search-mask" for quick research. Just type Neckel.
Normally Scholtz sells only packages, but you can have every figure in stock as a single piece (with additions in price)
Years ago I needed some additional medieval masons and got them - for a item price of 2 EUR plus shipping.
Joerg
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Thats right-Neckel napoleonics do appear at Brlinner, albeit in groups, although that is no problem- compared to other modelling genres, flats are quite good value.
Neckel has the blue king figures though-I wish I could get a reply!
Kindly, Ive been introduced to Frau Ochel now and within the kieler, Bock and Grunewald catalogues there are many more beautiful figures than I can paint in a lifetime .
Hopefully there will be a box brimming with ancients and napoleonics winging it's way to me soon :)
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I think a big help for a newcomer to flats might be advice on how to get the best out of oils. Chances are that they have discovered flats via military or fantasy modelling which is almost always done with acrylic paint.
Oils are very different-transparencies,glazing etc and require much re learning (which is fun but also daunting)
Im learning the hard way and getting through lots of paint stripper ...
I'll argue that with you! 8) I advise newbies to stick with whatever media they already know. I think it's too hard to learn a new media AND flat techniques at the same time - unless you're REALLY good! ;D
Start slow and remember its a journey not a destination. There are some here who do an excellent job on flats with acrylics, so flats can certainly be painted to a very high standard in acrylics - though not by me ;D I've seen some painters on CMON who could make the jump in a heartbeat.
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PJ-Im going to rise to that challenge! :D
I use acrylics in my day job-never occurred to try them on a flat.
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Take a look at Penny Meyer's and Greg Di Franco's work to see what is possible in acrylics as two examples of magic possible.
Mark 8)
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PJ-Im going to rise to that challenge! :D
I use acrylics in my day job-never occurred to try them on a flat.
Best of luck to you, Peter! Looking forward to tales of your success.
As Mark says, Penny and Greg are two very good examples of Masters who paint flats using acrylics. Both are "reformed" oils painters. So think of yourself as "ahead of the curve" of people switching to acrylics. Our own Roger is no slouch either! Have a look at his great work on this site.
I think what matters is not what media you use, but whether you are comfortable with and in control of your media. I started with acrylics, but soon found them limiting; whereas, I took to oils almost immediately. They just fit my style. I just don't "get" acrylics. Doesn't make them wrong - just not for me.
I gotta believe that if you use acrylics already in your work, it will be MUCH easier for you to paint flats. When you learn the technique, if you want to move to oils, fine. You may already know many of the principles and techniques that we here have struggled to learn.
Other than some paint colors, most of the techniques we discuss here apply whether you are painting in oils or acrylics. GOOD LUCK!
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Greg is the best miniatures painter in the world, period!
What he does with shadow is amazing, his work is well known outside flat circles.
I use acrylics most days in some form (I heartily recommend Games Workshop acrylics btw, the quality is great-honestly better than vallejo and there are some unusual and very useful technical paints) and I get very good results on 3d figures with them, and Most of the worlds finest painters use them for a reason, the results can be phenomenal.
But I find them such a chore! Oils are expressive and organic, you can paint in the flow of the figures movement, express in different styles-oils to me are poetry while acrylics are a technical tool. Maybe its because I have to use acrylic so often-I just like the change.
I'm very pleased with what I've got on my workbench at the moment-ten blue hussars and a finished Lassalle and of course the Hartischer Lifeguard
When I take a good picture I'll post em up :)
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>>you can paint in the flow of the figures movement<<
Peter, could you elaborate on this statement? Maybe a pic or two...?
Cheers,
Glen
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As long as you're having fun, Peter, that's all that matters. Enjoy!
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Oh I am enjoying my painting, for a change!
Glen, my stuff wouldn't look any different, but I get a lot of satisfaction out of painting expressively, a bit of a painting epiphany to be honest! If the horse is galloping left to right then its quick brush strokes-left to right. Just going for it with big bold blocks of colour and not obsessing about detail, just shape. Randomly putting purples and reds into the mix to create unusual shadows.
They still look just like toy soldiers, but for once I'm enjoying the journey. My painting had completely turned into an exercise in precision, I invariably finished nothing. Somewhere along the way I forgot to enjoy it!
There's things with oils I'm learning, like how to control the transparent shades, but nothing is stressful, I actually look forward to painting now!
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Ah, I get it. I had a feeling that's what you meant, just wasn't absolutely positive. Gil Elvgren used similar techniques for painting hair. Visible brush strokes would often follow the curl or flow of the hair. Variations were used to paint lace. If you look at his skin tones, you see a lot of yellows, red-browns, violets, and purples; the first in the highs, the latter three in the shadows. They really seem to pop the flesh tones.
I agree about the 'exercise in precision'. I found myself going that way until I started painting with an unassisted viewing distance of 15-18 inches. That's where I look at my figures and decide whether I need more or I can stop. Rather than paint precise flowers and leaves on my Elf Pinup's lingerie, I opted for two-color leaf strokes and two-color flower dots because at 15 or so inches, that's all you would see.
Great minds think alike... ;)
Cheers,
Glen
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I think that is the whole point of painting--- one's own enjoyment.
I would be interested in seeing some of your work Peter, it sounds inspiring
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Quite true, Nick. But... figure painters - and modelers in general, for that matter - are constantly constantly being influenced by others to conform to certain standards, methods, or styles. Sometimes these are good; sometimes they are not. I wonder how many hobbyists retreated into their own world when they failed, or simply didn't embrace, someone else's standard.
Cheers,
Glen
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If you are a newbie, PLEASE read the last 4 posts. It will save you a lot of heartache. Don't let the judges or the critics ruin what is a joyful and very satisfying experience. We think alike, gents.
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Theres an open studio area at work and often folk will sit with me, asking for tips and it's amazing how people in the hobby (especially kids) have been conditioned to think Theres a right and wrong way of painting. Thats pretty sad and I hope I change their view somewhat!
Be nice to think my painting did inspire :)