International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society

Flat Figures Painters Forum => Shows => Topic started by: Joerg on August 13, 2017, 02:29:30 PM

Title: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Joerg on August 13, 2017, 02:29:30 PM
Back from K.
Was a nice weekend and I was glab about the talks with you, my friends, and others.

My congratulations to the awards-medal-winners
and my assertion, that I am deeply ashamed by the "Winner's presentation show"   >:(
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Mike G on August 13, 2017, 04:07:39 PM
What happened with the winners presentation show?
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on August 13, 2017, 04:09:22 PM
Pity I could not meet you at K, Joerg !!
But what happened?
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: willie on August 13, 2017, 09:11:16 PM
Yes what happen ??? Willie
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Joerg on August 14, 2017, 02:20:52 AM
I think my English speraking friends could express it more subtle:

The "International" Figure and Diorama Show (half the audience from France, Belgium, Britain, U.S. , Italy, Spain...)
 had a presentation master, who did not even manage to say "Good evening, friends"  or  "Bon soir",
not to speak about the further text of the show in another language than German.

That's the one point.

The other thing is the pictures.
I can (half) understand, if they don't show every Bronze winner display (many, many of them),
but they even could not show the GOLD winning displays (all of them, perhaps a dozen ?).

And (my minimum expactation) - they did not have a headline on a huge screen, what category we were talking about  >:(   
=> five or six headlines, whose writing could have been done in two years time before.

So, now I am in rage again ....
but to change the focus => the exhibits were of high and outstanding quality
and to see them "in real" was far better than to wait for a picture  ;)

And the BFFS has (again) some award winners in it's ranges.  :D



 
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on August 14, 2017, 05:48:38 AM
Thank you Joerg for your comments.

I noticed two years ago that only gold an silver were cited, not bronze (too many) ... but even less this year ??
As far as language, I know the name is

(https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/19/31/59/25/k0010.jpg)

and giving only in German is perhaps not very welcoming, but:

1) Since GB wished to quit Europe, English language is no longer is predominant language in Europe like German is with Autria, Germany, Switzerland; perhaps we may have to change for Europe too, and put Englsih at le level of Scandinavian, Dutch, Portugese with the populatin weight given by Ireland only in the future?

2) It is a German competition primarely, and it could be that English language is not familar in Bavarian aereas among people as Kulmbach is not an International Business or economical Centre in Germany?

3) You will find exactly the same behaviour for competitions at Montrouge, Lyon, Sèvres .. all in French ONLY, or Folkestone, all in English ONLY.  I don't speak bout the United States, as oustide themselves, the world is not existing and barbarian! (although they could also use Spanish, widely spead in the USA.

The pity can be indeed the conclusions given to the exhibtin, which could have been more structured and formal, as the area benefits as much from foreigners to Bavararia than the local people!!  This is called hospitality.

Pity for not havng been able to attend, but promised, in two years, I wll be there !!!

Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: fesak_j on August 14, 2017, 05:54:43 AM

Hi lads, just a few of my feelings from my first visit of Kulmbach show. I have arrived around 11:00 to Kulmbach, luckily we have found soon the hall for sellers, so it was the good point to start the tour.
First we left for coffee to city centre, than to exhibition. Kulmbach is nice small city, a quiet city  :)  maybe it was just a saturday, but you have not met so many people on the streets except of city centre. The exhibition was fine, many paintings were pure masterclass, i guess Ricks diorama was unbelievably the best I ever seen on my own eyes. Maybe the hall was too big or it is just a feeling but it was half empty? ........ ???  than we moved to selling hall, where I spent more hours than I expected. It was absolutely full of sellers and buyers, sometimes no space to move. Of course I have visited BFFS stand to introduce myself and next year I hope I ll join for longer time.  8) 


see you in 2018  :)
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Joerg on August 14, 2017, 07:04:11 AM
see you in 2018

@fesak, if you have in mind Kulmbach again,
you must be patient till 2019  ;D


@Hannibal,  every French, Belgian, Brit or American is free to take his own conclusions from treatment of guests from abroad.
I took mine. ;) (and explained them)
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Mike G on August 14, 2017, 07:45:34 AM
I am hoping to get over there in 2019 but we'll see. As an American, when we don't understand a language, we will simply ask our questions in English repeatedly in a louder and louder voice until someone answers. It works 10-20% of the time
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: willie on August 14, 2017, 09:33:56 AM
 Ok no problem there all you have to remember is ??? Where is my room, beer, food, bathroom that's a big one ??? and did I bring enough money for Flats and how am I going to get this passed my wife ::) Willie
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Jean_Paul on August 14, 2017, 02:09:59 PM
Gallery


http://www.modellbaukeller.at/Galerien/Reise/170812_Kulmbach_2017/index.html
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: marko on August 14, 2017, 05:19:22 PM
These are quite nice.  It looks like, as always, there was some pretty stunning work.


I am particularly partial to the set of Spitfires - what lovely work.  Thank you for sharing these!


mark  8)
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Charles on August 15, 2017, 05:04:38 AM
Thanks for the link Jean-Paul, some great figures. Not so many flats but some marvellous work there.
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: böckchen on August 15, 2017, 05:55:49 AM
nice to see. :o
 But where are the flat figures?
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on August 15, 2017, 06:28:06 AM
I am working on some 150 pictures of flats taken by a mmember of my club which will be posted this week in the gallery together with 3 other sources ...
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard gady on August 15, 2017, 06:37:33 AM
I am looking Forward to it
Best Wishes
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Nicholas Ball on August 15, 2017, 02:09:26 PM
Hi Joerg,

It was great to meet up with you again and get some valued  pointers on making box dioramas. I may, as you suggest cut down on the depth of my diorama, and who knows in 2 years you may see another  ;)

With regards the presentation, I spoke to Franz and they certainly had a problem with the slide machine. As for it being in German, well as they say-  when in Rome.....

I think of all the shows we go to, Scale Model Challenge in Einhoven have got it right. Although the presentation is in English, ALL winning figures are shown as are the names of the winners, even if you can't understand the language you know whether to go up for a medal or not, and more importantly, everyone can actually see which  figures won and what medal they received.
There was confusion in our camp ( as you could expect anyway!! ;D ) as one medal winner seemed to have the name Ball Nicholas, luckily someone appeared out of no where before I could make a fool of myself ;D

That aside, The show organisers did you proud, and as usual we all had great time. :)

Roll on 2 years :)



Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on August 16, 2017, 04:43:07 AM
Sorry guys for keeping you waiting with pictures of Kulmbach...

I have some 400+ pictures from ten(10) sources that I am sorting to extract the best when duplicates. As I ignore (no names, no title) from who or what level, instead of loading them at random, I will enter them in the following sequence (but I load from the end):

I will eventually come with some 215 pictures !!

 - general, room, displays
 - bourse, tent
 - art copies (*) then civils/fantasy subjects     
                          (*)= copies of paintings or sculpture, like Mona Lisa, Néfertiti bust, ...
 - animals
 - fantastic
 - histo ancient age (<800)
 - histo middle age  (800-1492)
 - histo renaissance+ancien regime (1492-1789)
 - histo first empire (1789-1820)
 - modern time (> 1820)
 - dioramas (27)
then 11 pictures of Kulmbach town to finish

sorting is almost done, I am selecting and starting to reaster the selected pics fr defects, misalignment, dust or light spots, frames cut, .. then will load from the end (Kulmbach is entered now).

So be patient, it takes 3 to 4 days, but I am entering each day sections you can go and see... in Kulmbach 2017 Show Gallery.

Note = in the mean time, I have loaded pictures from Kulmbach shows .... since 2007 ! from what I could find on the net ....



If you are aware of any non identified work name, painter name on these pictures, please send me an MP , I will add the information, so you can use actively the "SEARCH" function in the menu gallery to look for your works, or any othr subject across the 8000 pictures (if info was given).  If no description or name, only YOUR MEMORY or a 100% visual screening of the gallery must be used to find the picture!

Thank you when loading yourself a picture to give a title, the painter name, size, subject or period, editor, (engraver), to make the seach tool very effective to the entire community !!!

Thanks for your patience ..

Hannibal
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Mike G on August 16, 2017, 09:56:38 AM
Can't wait to see them!
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on August 16, 2017, 10:20:31 AM
some links; dioramas tonight, then history starting tomorrow ....

http://poildemartre.forumactif.com/t2395-kulmbach-2017#35637

more links Inside that one ....

Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on August 17, 2017, 04:31:32 AM
sorry, absent for part of the day, but figures are sorted, and will be loaded progressively today & tomorrow (210-215).


exemple of choices I got now ....
(https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/19/31/59/25/nouvel12.jpg)

I want to load the best picture collected, when choise is available ... Youi will see as description above:

   KZ45      means gross picture untreated , best selected among several
   $KZ45    means final picture but no comments enclosed, nor description
   'title'      means final lay-out and comments  (  "Title"  means description of the author, (Title) of the editor)

After I will correct spots, distorsions, and complete descriptions ( a good week work)......
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: fesak_j on August 18, 2017, 03:51:52 AM
joerg:  ;D   ;D ;D  ..... you re right, it might be nice surprise to show up a year earlier than in plan is  ;D
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on August 18, 2017, 06:21:29 AM
still 40 pics gross (civil/fantasy+tent/tables)  to load, then I'll go to cleaning and comments ....
Title: Kulmbach 2017 DUD
Post by: Paul Barnes on August 26, 2017, 04:07:47 AM
Well- I don't like to be negative  But---
   After 2 years in the planning - I believe I could not have picked a worse year to travel all the way from Australia to visit Kulmbach
It was a COMPLETE FIZZER !! 
  As my Dad, Peter Barnes never had enough money to go to "The Show" I decided 2017 would be his Tribute year.
 To those of you who do not know, My Dad introduced Jim Woodley  (Co-founder of this society) to the World of flats & taught him how to paint them way back in the 60's (or 50's even ?) My Dad met Gottstein at BMSS after WW2 1948 I think it was ? & that is how he got interested in them.
The permanent display at the Schloss was excellent however & did reduce the disappointment a little bit.
 At least I've ticked "Visit Kulmbach" & quite a few other things off the "Bucket List' on this trip.
I did buy the nice Kulmbacher Bier set at Plassenburg Schloss & some nice Napoleonic flats at Berliner Zinnfiguren.
Still a great hobby Regards Paul Barnes



Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Brian on August 26, 2017, 04:34:07 AM

I have been hearing lots and a lot far from good!! the town had no interest in the show as most bars where closed, a few traders never showed, and the comp was dominated by one club, who by the way made up half the judges, the atmosphere was lost for the flat collector with more a more round figures creeping in, I thought this was the flat weekend? our weekend!!


Paul it is a big shame that the one you chose to go to is the worst in many years, believe me this is not the norm.


A letter from the BFFS should be sent pointing out some of the disappointments over the weekend so they can be addressed


To all who had this as their first Kulmbach don't wright it of, this year the organizers had lots of walls to clime just to get the show together!
next one will be better


   
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on August 26, 2017, 05:02:36 AM
Hey men, there was a great hope to be there this yar, missed with health problems on the last minutes .... I heard also critics from elewhere, and your two messages comfort me in not having been there this year, with better hopes in 2019 !!!!
But to keep dominating the compet in number an sie, we have to mobilize ourselves, to avoid that like other European compets, flats would only weight 5 to 10% of the total !! It would be a shame. We've two years to revitalize this and come all of us to change the image !
My wife and I came in 2015 by exposing almost 3 meters of flats, and did we planned this yar, but could not come ... I saw fantastic paintings among the pictures; the town was perhaps stressed by the works done on the Markt Platz.  I hope it was a "bad year", not a slow slope to hell !!  unless the young generation is not taking the hands that elderly painters like us ('m 71) is giving aay slowly, in favour of internet, facebook, videogames .... Is the Golden Century of flat behind us?
More and more European (and US) exhibitions handle nowadays flats as a separate category, thank you for this instead of mixing them with the round flats; why not also miniatures mixed?  The few who still rests will just loose flat painters (like Montrouge for me !!).  We should share more our art, no enough communiaction bridges between Germany and France, Spain, Belgium .... Judgug methoology still too dispersed, no effective training unified for mutual recognition or equivalency, resulting in frustration even of Masre painters with various competitions ....
We alsmost lost the business few years ago with the declassification of tin and lead as dangerous substanes by Europe !!! Only Germany had very strong and concerted reaction ....  Perhaps we should have an European association, Kulmbach is the best representing event, but also with editors, painters, distributors, judges, ....club representatives .... with a meeting at ... Kulmbach or other German space the other year of of the Börse year?
Just ideas .... where BFFS could also have an input with their senior staff ...
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Nicholas Ball on August 26, 2017, 11:24:27 AM
Michel, the BFFS are well up in the mix and trying to push the boundaries  8)

With regards the declarification of tin figures, I was personally in direct contact with the head scientific officer of the Eu, as well as most of the German parties involved.

As with the growing number of flats at Worldwide shows, again this I feel is down to the members of the BFFS getting out to these far places to promote flats. If you recall at Ransart and Einhoven 4 years ago, we were basically the only ones showing the flats in competition, and there weren't that many. Last year the tables were full :)
As we continue to 'invade' other countries, popularity is slowly growing :D

We are a small but dedicated group and will constantly strive to continue to make the flats a permanent feature at all shows. 8)

So a big Thank You to all our Members for their continued support and keeping the society going.  :)
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on August 26, 2017, 02:07:57 PM
Thanks Nick !!!
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard gady on August 27, 2017, 03:37:12 AM
I did not visit the Kulmbach Börse.
But I see two big Problems for the future of the flat figure.
First. Most Editors are from Germany, and many (most?) of them are in advanced Age. (and almost all are private collectors - not "companies"
I do not know, if I am right, but, there are very fewer new figures editet as in the "golden years".
Second: There are very few non-german Editors. Round figures are produced in most countries of the figure-collecting world.
So, I think it is sad, but, its a Logical decline ot the flat figure.
On the other side. The BFFS Forum is the only active Forum in the Internet.
(Klio Forum for example - there was not a single post in july, and two in August 2017.)
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Tannenberg1410 on August 31, 2017, 03:10:04 PM
Hello,

I am new here, come from Germany and use a translator since my English is very bad.
I've been following this interesting discussion for some time. Since I myself was an exhibitor in Kulmbach it is interesting for me to hear how the visitors think about this year's exchange. For me it was a good stock exchange and also the turnover was satisfactory.
Yes it is a problem with the flat pewter figures. The older editors want to have much too much money for the old forms. Unfortunately, the fewest successors can start with the forms and so land some form then on the landfill.
But we collectors and editors have another problem. In order to bring new figures to the market, we urgently need new engravers. Our present engravers are usually more than 60 years old. In 10 years, this craft is extinct if we are not promptly traded.
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Gerald on September 01, 2017, 04:25:43 AM
Frank is absolutely right! Old publishers go and new editors will come, eg. Christan Luscher. But where are the young engravers?
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Mike G on September 01, 2017, 08:07:16 AM
I suspect they may not be in Europe, but I bet there are many in Asia awaiting some entrepreneurial collector who aspires to be the next gottstein!


The real question is, what will be the subject of the next great series and who will commission it (i nominate Charles and Michel)?


Meanwhile I'm sitting here trying to think of what a great new series could be and am coming up blank. Has everything already been engraved?!
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: willie on September 01, 2017, 09:15:49 AM
Mike let me help you :o There are Colonial Wars the Indian Army , British, French, Dutch, American, Italian, German, Belgium, Natives from all over the World. :o World War I  Belgium, Greece ,Serbia, Romania, Austro-Hungarian, Turkey,  Bulgaria, Japan, American.  Navies of the World 1600-2017 World War II  half the Armies have not been done in flats. I would like to see Early Iron Age Greek Warriors 1100-700 BC Sea Peoples of the bronze age Mediterranean 1400-1000 BC Artillery the big boys 8) Tanks, Trucks, Wagons :o , Wars in South America in the 19th century :P So Mike I hope this helps you out ;D Willie
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard on September 01, 2017, 11:35:15 AM
Hello Mike

One great series I would like to see.
The Delhi Durbar of 1903 (or 1911).
It was done several times in toy soldiers. But I do not know flat figures in 30 mm.
This could be a very big series.
Smaller: Policemen for the time 1880 to 1950 (I think there are many Germans -but where are the british, French, american....)
There are many figures for townsfolk of that time. If you get the right policemen (oder other figures in uniforms of the Special Country, you have endless variations for vignettes or Dioramas)
Other things I would like: Authentic American Natives. (not Plains or Woodland - they exist) but there were 500 nations.
And some scottish civilians. (I am a big fan of Robert Louis Stevensons "Kidnapped"
Greetings Gerhard
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Mike G on September 01, 2017, 11:56:55 AM
All good suggestions but I don't know willie - I think I have many of the figures you mention below!  I think some spaniards from galleons of the 16th century might be nice and maybe some ships to recreate lepanto, and then again perhaps spaniards from 1700 or so. But this short list took me a long time to think of, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of it already exists!
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard on September 01, 2017, 01:28:56 PM
Hello Mike
Spaniards for 1700 you will find at Zinnfiguren Wilken (Spanish Succession Kuhn Figures) and Kieler of course. Spaniards for 1650 - 1700 at Zinnfiguren Fleesensee. (But I dont know how correct they are historically)
But I think there are no Sailors for this period (except some pirates from Graf and Hafer)
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on September 01, 2017, 01:41:24 PM
we are so much focused to traditons and folklores, to keep them within our world 'patrimoine', but why can we not also illustrated folklores in flat figures ??
- carnavals
- large festivals
- olympic games (modern)
- modern sports attitudes and key players
In other words, leave also to our grand children images of our life and habits ... before they go away ...
- busts of key characters of the XXth and XXI century  as we do for modelism .... with cars, aircrafts
 
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Tannenberg1410 on September 01, 2017, 02:46:43 PM
Hello,

an interesting discusion for new flat figures. Today I got drawings for a little new scene that I would like to bring out. I was shocked when I saw the price of a drawing for a 30mm foot. The drawing costs 45,00 Euro per figure. Then the costs for the engraving and the stone are added. Since we move again around 100.00 for a figure. So it costs me a foot 145,00 Euro. If I sell the figure for 1.00 euro I have to sell 145 pieces alone to get the cost of the form again. I have not yet counted the tin, the current and my time.
Deshal it is understandable the less and less 30mm new figures come on the market.
We had said that there are hardly any tin shops in Germany. This is simply because you can not make money with tin figures. That is why in Germany the majority of pewter figures are only issued by collectors, since these do not have to live from the sale. If one had to calculate all costs incl. The expenditure for dispatch, so that one can live on, then a foot figure must cost 5,00. But that would not pay for a collector again.
Therefore, the editors bring only figures on the market, from which they think that the costs come back half way.
This was also the reason why I myself started to engrave. I wanted to have the one and the other figure for me. The cost of a few hundred euros each was too high for me because I knew that the figure is rarely sold.
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard on September 01, 2017, 03:52:15 PM
O.K. it is good for the collectors that flats are cheap. But must they.
Look at the Prices for 1/72 resin figures. Around 2 to 3 € for one figure. (1/72 is about 24 mm high)
I think a 30 mm figure is worth a higher Price. (There are beautiful 1/72 figures, but the cannot reach a good flat)
Greetings
Gerhard
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on September 01, 2017, 04:40:14 PM
But ..... Frank, does that mean that 30mm flats have never been profitable ?
Or is the change from large series paintings to single pieces detailed painting the cause of this slow death?
Why has cost so dramatically increased then? cost of engraving, manpower, metal material?
I ampaiting few 30mm flats, never series, and wold be ready to pay few euros per piece instead of the 0.8 tp 1.8 euro, like 28mm round figures as expressed by Gerhard.  Or selling price should decrease for series only ?
It can be that 3D printing and engraving by software instead of artistic repate of a drawing might change the cost structure in the future, like diactating a letter , an typing it on a old mechanical typing ùachine has seen its cost decreasing by word processors and high speed printing, even only electronic storage paperlasss nowadays ??   But we have tolive this transition toay with a dilemma and har time, for editors and have passionate painters be forced to accept a higher acquisition price for the time being.
Good painters are anyways selling their piece with a confortable margin as passion, provided it is not your unique source of income.
... Interesting discussion !!  Collecting art is not for making profit, but to satisfy a passion, perhaps a vice !
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Mike G on September 01, 2017, 05:25:33 PM
I also think that Flats today are underpriced. I don't think that prices have kept up with inflation, and the type of skilled labor required to produce a set must be extremely expensive as I recall Brian and Charles saying about the Crimea set. I would think for a set of any size to be produced today, it would have to. E designed, engraved and cast in Asia or a similar location where labor is much cheaper. Round model soldiers such as king &a country, Jenkins etc are all now produced in China or thereabouts. For new figures to be profitable, the hobby will have to keep up with the times.
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Gerald on September 02, 2017, 12:59:07 AM
But ..... Frank, does that mean that 30mm flats have never been profitable ?
Or is the change from large series paintings to single pieces detailed painting the cause of this slow death?

This is probably the main reason. But also that the costs rise.Energy is more expensive, the tin prices have risen. The costs for the engravers have risen .... etc.
But I have already spoken with collectors who said 1 € for a 30mm figure is too expensive. As Frank would say right now, the figure cost 5 € if you wanted to make money, but who would pay the? Hardly one and thus the problem would be there again. Or it would collect many masses again and buy 30 or 40 times the same figure.
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard on September 02, 2017, 03:26:13 AM
One Comparison

30 mm flats  german Editor: 1 foot 1 horse (30 years war) Price: € 3,20
1/72 round figures, german Editor: 1 foot 1 horse (30 years war) Price: € 11,50
So, if the 1/72 figures are buyed, there are collectors interested in historical figures, who pays 3,5 times more.
(one cause may be: round figures (in my opinion) are easier to paint)
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on September 02, 2017, 04:56:31 AM
Going et Gerald comments, "But I have already spoken with collectors who said 1 € for a 30mm figure is too expensive."  This is stupid and collectrslive in another planet, where they benzine still cost 15 cents a liter, a read even less and waken up in our wolrld very expensive !!
Ronde bosse painters are ready to buy 75mm fgures for 30 to 50 euros unpainted to paint them ... this is 60 to 100 deutch mark !!  ... I wold have never bought such a model for such a prohibitive price.
Flats must restate their selling price to an acceptable level, higher, ...or disappear. We rarely find nowadays armies on tables of hundreds of flats as before, but doramas more sophisticated, or sanyetes of 2/3 characters or single pieces, painted with more care, where the time for painting against the material (the flat) itself are higher.  Ifa flat would cost 5 euros or 7 euros, it would not stop people painting them nowadays.  The selling price found on ebay's include a depreciated mould, aged, .  But a new mould, high quality should give flats charged at higher price to users.
Going to China i a big mistake, like clothes, electronic, toys = it is giving up again our know-how, artistic talents, tradition, manpower, salaries to foreigners for their own benefit, until we become plants in our house, ordering everithing by a laptop, travelling on TC screens, holding meetings from home in video, we don't even need legs anymore !! (le futuristic view of some people f what will a hulan look like in 500 years !!).
We must keep, sherish, protect this art here, within Europe as a sign of our culture, our values and pay for it.
Tomorrow, wih 3D printing, even colouring on computer, a painted flat will cost ... centimes; 98% will go in the pocket of the conceptor in California, and we will have no longer any interest, because each flat will be the same as millions others, like a coin of metal !!! Instead of being built, painted by an artist well known in our own country instead by little hands among thousands of (young) chinese or russian girls, producing them in large series "aall the same" ...).
Do we want quality, value, ...or low cost an massive productions, low quality and poor looking ?
I have my answer, but I am not a collector .... I don't need to keep 20,000 flats in my home in boxes and drawers; only a few framed and exposed ... because I painted them myself!
I would even pay 10 euros for such a 30 mm flat, but no paint an army of 300, which would tak a good part of my life n one single subject ....
Everyone to find his passion ... and pay for it on his way!
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Brian on September 02, 2017, 06:42:07 AM

Figures are expensive to produce and the collector is not willing to pay for the work involved.
That is just how it is  :( and the reason I can't produce a set of 30mm, as much as I would love too the cost is just to much.


3D figures are coming but don't hold your breath, their having problems so will be a while yet!!       
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard on September 02, 2017, 09:00:10 AM
Hello Hannibal
Thats what I mean. Why pay collectors € 11,50 for 2 1/72 round figures (or your example € 70,-- for one 75 mm round).
If there are flat figure Lovers, they will pay a realistic Price for good (interesting) new figures.
Maybe the flat figure should go modern. (Rockbands, Science Fiction, Modern soldiers, Fantasy, Movie or Computer Game based figures, modern Sportsmen, Comic Heroes.... - I know the Copyright Problems - but Andrea Min. 54mm round made Cpt. Kirk and named it "Space Commander") I think there are enough Napoleonics, 7 Years War and Knights on the Market.
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Mike G on September 02, 2017, 09:55:31 AM
I think collectors will pay market price no matter what it is. Just look at the prices that Mignot figures fetch, or the battle of murten figures once they're no longer available. If the figures are of high quality and depict subjects in demand, collectors will pay whatever it takes. For example, mineur created the beautiful sets of Venetians with Sontag. I would have paid more for those, as where else can one buy figures like that? Same thing for Alexander's Napoleonic sets. His Bavarian horse artillery would sell at a much higher price I think. Same for Alice in wonderland. The old Retter sets. Etc etc
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: aba on September 02, 2017, 11:06:25 AM
Dear all,

probably the assumption about flats pricing is true. Because at the moment any editor is just spending money. This was of course not the case in former days. Until about turn of the 21. century moulds got paid off rapidly - at least after the first Kulmbach fair -. Even though this was maybe only true for popular eras like Napoleonic.

Today a new flat had to be paid between 5 and 10 Euros if their sale price were "calculated" by normal businesss methods. When doing less popular eras it had to be even more.

At the moment new  Napoleonic sets will be sold about 30 to 40 times when published and maybe another 10 sets next two years then falling down to about 5. So in effect there will be about 70 to 80 sold during 8 years in average. When sold for 3,00 Euro and deducting the casting foe € 0,60 there is a payback of 2,40 i.e. about € 160 - 180 in 8 years which is not enough to pay drawing and engraving and stone completely which would need about € 280 to recover all costs.

As a consequence all "commercial" or better "non-sponsoring" editors have more or less disappeared from the market during the last decade (unless selling from mould paid off 50 years ago). Todays editors are mainly collectors themselves.

Just a guess, but probably there would be more new flats upcoming each year when a (new) flat could be sold for € 8,-- per horseman. But this price is far off reality when looking at the thousands of "paid" mould existing.

I´m fine getting a 50% payback as I have to admit I do the editing for my collecting/collection and so this helps to cover costs.

Finally there are still 150 to 200 new flats each year what is still not so bad.

Best regards

Alexander
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard on September 02, 2017, 11:40:47 AM
Dear Alexander

In the 80s I counted the new flats presented in "Die Zinnfigur"
The best year was 1600 new flats (all sizes) the worst was 900 new flats.
I have my origins in a Family of Business People. The best word in Business is "new".
There will maybe flats forever - but it will be collectors for their own collection. The "world" of flat figure Editors and
Collectors will be gone.
So collectors must pay realistic Prices in future - or the Hobby ist gone forever - soon.
Best Wishes
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Brian on September 02, 2017, 07:12:56 PM

So collectors must pay realistic Prices in future - or the Hobby ist gone forever - soon.

Have to agree, things need to change.


Producers/ Editors at losing hand over fist for the love of the flat figures   
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Gerald on September 03, 2017, 01:50:30 AM

Maybe the flat figure should go modern. Rockbands, Science Fiction, Modern soldiers, Fantasy, Movie or Computer Game based figures, modern Sportsmen, Comic Heroes.... - I know the Copyright Problems - but Andrea Min. 54mm round made Cpt. Kirk and named it "Space Commander"

Hallo Gerhard,

then you would have to pay license fees to Disney or which company always if you do not want to come in difficulties. I do not believe that today's publisher of flat figures can afford the financial risk.
I think most of today's collectors of flat figures still collect the classic themes such as Napoleon or Frederick the Great, etc.
I have some unusual characters horror, SF etc. in my program but rarely ordered a figurines .... are not just out of movie and TV or the price is too high ... but for me is the Ok I will continue figures engrave let it be only for Frank and me;)

Gruß Gerald
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard on September 03, 2017, 03:11:18 AM
Hallo Gerald

I am also mainly interested in classic themes. But I "collect" round figures too (classic historical figures). (I am a bad painter, no Talent at all, but round figures are much easier to paint) In round figures there are many Fantasy, SF and modern figures (and many, many WW2). So I think there are collectors interested in that Kind of stuff. And if some of them go flats, then Editors can (hopefully) realize classic themes with the benefit of the "modern" sales. (But sure - it is a Kind of wishful thinking)
Grüße aus Österreich
Gerhard
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: snagy on September 04, 2017, 01:58:49 AM
Friends,

I am a bit surprised reading these gloomy opinions about the future of the flats.
Just yesterday were bought three sets for 337 (15 bids from 7 diff. persons), 342 (10 bids from 7 diff. persons) and 253 (11 bids from 6 diff. persons) Euro on eBay:

e.g.:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mittelalter-Langbogner-um-1450-unterschiedliche-Manufakturen/311937424347?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mittelalter-Langbogner-um-1450-unterschiedliche-Manufakturen/311937424347?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649)

I think these show that there is market on quite high prices for quality flat figures.
Best regards-
Sandor
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard on September 04, 2017, 02:07:59 AM
Dear Sandor

Your first example is € 6,70 for one very good painted figure. So if you pay the paint Job (e.g. 4 times more than unpainted) you
are on € 1,7 for a single unpainted figure. So i do not think, that this is a really "high" Price.
Best REgards
Gerhard
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: snagy on September 04, 2017, 02:26:34 AM
Hi Gerhard,
you are right - calculating on a single figure bases the price is not so high.
Anyway I love the flats and my heart is glad when I see they are highly appreciated by others too.
Best regards-
Sandor
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: gerhard on September 04, 2017, 03:25:27 AM
Dear Sandor

Who will be the first hungarian Editor. I know very good round figures from Hungary, but no flats.
There are no figures for the Honvèd of 1848/49 I think, for example. (well Heinrichsen maybe)
Best Wishes from Austria
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Gerald on September 04, 2017, 03:44:22 AM
Who will be the first hungarian Editor.

Now I bought a convolute molds for 30 and 28 mm flat figures from Hungary / Budapest in December 2016. So anybody in Hungary seems to have been busy with it.
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on September 04, 2017, 03:52:47 AM
Any idea of price levels from our collectors for one painted 30 mm flat, on foot and on horse, of various qualiy:
a. average (for large armies)
b. good (like those just sold .. at 6.7€, or painted in Sri Lanka, ...)
c. top quality (like Daniel Canet, Martin Lother, Franzoia) ...
Painting time spent and quality level are driving also the market, and in the last case, cost of the flat is surely not a barrier, if paying 5 to 8 euros for one unpainted flat...
I suppose collectors are mostly in categories b) and c)
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Mike G on September 04, 2017, 07:56:48 AM
Less than one would think I believe Michel. Greg difrancos 120mm emperor maximillian turned up on eBay a few years ago. You can see a full page photo in mike Taylor's book, and I had the opportunity to examine it at the Long Island show last November. It's exquisite - one of if not the best painted flat I've ever seen - and it sold for $350. At the right auction it would probably have sold for twice that, but the Round equivalent would probably exceed $1,000, so painted flats sell at a discount I believe.   I know that bernd mrosk sells painted flats of varying quality - some quite well done and others for large scenes. You can see his results on his website I believe to get a sense of market price. Nothing he sells however is at daniel or lothars level in my opinion.
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: Hannibal on September 04, 2017, 09:45:23 AM
Thank you Mike for your auction reference!  Ilook at two catalogues, interesting.
Indeed the qualiy of painting is very average, mostly poor !! and confirmed by low pricing... Some good ones even did not sell at all.
But very intersting is to use the colours as reference, asn these people must have also studied history and illustrations, and they can be used and guidance for painting oursekves.  I bought such figures from time to time, low price, but with the action to bring them back to unpainted flats ..ecause their quality is better than many used moulds of togay = engraving is often excellent for starting a new painting !!!
Title: Re: Kulmbach 2017
Post by: willie on September 04, 2017, 10:30:33 PM
I agree with Brain :o It takes a lot time and money to produce flats. You have to figure the artist time into it. Is this figure going to be cost prohibitive to make.  8) Remember when we all talked about Pin Ups a couple of months ago. ??? . As for collectors, they have always shelled out the money weather it be for any of the hobby's. Model trains, planes, ships, toy soldiers. armor. Also stated before you manufacture what is time tested to sell :o I would like to also include books. If I see another book on German Army Uniforms I am going to go Nuts :P . Yes we are all becoming old  ::) But there lies a opportunity  :o We need to get out there and push are hobby to the younger generation. Get out there and push are cards and hand out flyers about shows and clubs. You know I do not know how many of the British Flat Figure Society Cards I have handed out at model Railroad shows and clubs. This weekend I well be up in Washington D.C. at two shows. National Capital Model Soldier Club and The Toy Soldier show in Annandale VA. I am get out of south FL before the storm hits :-[ . Last if it is not made then scratch build it  :o What do you have to lose  ::) Willie