Author Topic: Kulmbach 2017  (Read 3515 times)

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willie

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2017, 10:30:33 PM »
I agree with Brain :o It takes a lot time and money to produce flats. You have to figure the artist time into it. Is this figure going to be cost prohibitive to make.  8) Remember when we all talked about Pin Ups a couple of months ago. ??? . As for collectors, they have always shelled out the money weather it be for any of the hobby's. Model trains, planes, ships, toy soldiers. armor. Also stated before you manufacture what is time tested to sell :o I would like to also include books. If I see another book on German Army Uniforms I am going to go Nuts :P . Yes we are all becoming old  ::) But there lies a opportunity  :o We need to get out there and push are hobby to the younger generation. Get out there and push are cards and hand out flyers about shows and clubs. You know I do not know how many of the British Flat Figure Society Cards I have handed out at model Railroad shows and clubs. This weekend I well be up in Washington D.C. at two shows. National Capital Model Soldier Club and The Toy Soldier show in Annandale VA. I am get out of south FL before the storm hits :-[ . Last if it is not made then scratch build it  :o What do you have to lose  ::) Willie

Hannibal

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2017, 09:45:23 AM »
Thank you Mike for your auction reference!  Ilook at two catalogues, interesting.
Indeed the qualiy of painting is very average, mostly poor !! and confirmed by low pricing... Some good ones even did not sell at all.
But very intersting is to use the colours as reference, asn these people must have also studied history and illustrations, and they can be used and guidance for painting oursekves.  I bought such figures from time to time, low price, but with the action to bring them back to unpainted flats ..ecause their quality is better than many used moulds of togay = engraving is often excellent for starting a new painting !!!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 03:20:33 AM by Hannibal »
Michel
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Men are a bit like God: everything they can do, they do it. Or they will do it.  (Jean d'Ormesson)

Mike G

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2017, 07:56:48 AM »
Less than one would think I believe Michel. Greg difrancos 120mm emperor maximillian turned up on eBay a few years ago. You can see a full page photo in mike Taylor's book, and I had the opportunity to examine it at the Long Island show last November. It's exquisite - one of if not the best painted flat I've ever seen - and it sold for $350. At the right auction it would probably have sold for twice that, but the Round equivalent would probably exceed $1,000, so painted flats sell at a discount I believe.   I know that bernd mrosk sells painted flats of varying quality - some quite well done and others for large scenes. You can see his results on his website I believe to get a sense of market price. Nothing he sells however is at daniel or lothars level in my opinion.
New York

Hannibal

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2017, 03:52:47 AM »
Any idea of price levels from our collectors for one painted 30 mm flat, on foot and on horse, of various qualiy:
a. average (for large armies)
b. good (like those just sold .. at 6.7€, or painted in Sri Lanka, ...)
c. top quality (like Daniel Canet, Martin Lother, Franzoia) ...
Painting time spent and quality level are driving also the market, and in the last case, cost of the flat is surely not a barrier, if paying 5 to 8 euros for one unpainted flat...
I suppose collectors are mostly in categories b) and c)
Michel
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Men are a bit like God: everything they can do, they do it. Or they will do it.  (Jean d'Ormesson)

Gerald

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2017, 03:44:22 AM »
Who will be the first hungarian Editor.

Now I bought a convolute molds for 30 and 28 mm flat figures from Hungary / Budapest in December 2016. So anybody in Hungary seems to have been busy with it.

gerhard

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2017, 03:25:27 AM »
Dear Sandor

Who will be the first hungarian Editor. I know very good round figures from Hungary, but no flats.
There are no figures for the Honvèd of 1848/49 I think, for example. (well Heinrichsen maybe)
Best Wishes from Austria

snagy

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2017, 02:26:34 AM »
Hi Gerhard,
you are right - calculating on a single figure bases the price is not so high.
Anyway I love the flats and my heart is glad when I see they are highly appreciated by others too.
Best regards-
Sandor

gerhard

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2017, 02:07:59 AM »
Dear Sandor

Your first example is € 6,70 for one very good painted figure. So if you pay the paint Job (e.g. 4 times more than unpainted) you
are on € 1,7 for a single unpainted figure. So i do not think, that this is a really "high" Price.
Best REgards
Gerhard

snagy

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2017, 01:58:49 AM »
Friends,

I am a bit surprised reading these gloomy opinions about the future of the flats.
Just yesterday were bought three sets for 337 (15 bids from 7 diff. persons), 342 (10 bids from 7 diff. persons) and 253 (11 bids from 6 diff. persons) Euro on eBay:

e.g.:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mittelalter-Langbogner-um-1450-unterschiedliche-Manufakturen/311937424347?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

I think these show that there is market on quite high prices for quality flat figures.
Best regards-
Sandor

gerhard

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2017, 03:11:18 AM »
Hallo Gerald

I am also mainly interested in classic themes. But I "collect" round figures too (classic historical figures). (I am a bad painter, no Talent at all, but round figures are much easier to paint) In round figures there are many Fantasy, SF and modern figures (and many, many WW2). So I think there are collectors interested in that Kind of stuff. And if some of them go flats, then Editors can (hopefully) realize classic themes with the benefit of the "modern" sales. (But sure - it is a Kind of wishful thinking)
Grüße aus Österreich
Gerhard

Gerald

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2017, 01:50:30 AM »

Maybe the flat figure should go modern. Rockbands, Science Fiction, Modern soldiers, Fantasy, Movie or Computer Game based figures, modern Sportsmen, Comic Heroes.... - I know the Copyright Problems - but Andrea Min. 54mm round made Cpt. Kirk and named it "Space Commander"

Hallo Gerhard,

then you would have to pay license fees to Disney or which company always if you do not want to come in difficulties. I do not believe that today's publisher of flat figures can afford the financial risk.
I think most of today's collectors of flat figures still collect the classic themes such as Napoleon or Frederick the Great, etc.
I have some unusual characters horror, SF etc. in my program but rarely ordered a figurines .... are not just out of movie and TV or the price is too high ... but for me is the Ok I will continue figures engrave let it be only for Frank and me;)

Gruß Gerald

Brian

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2017, 07:12:56 PM »

So collectors must pay realistic Prices in future - or the Hobby ist gone forever - soon.

Have to agree, things need to change.


Producers/ Editors at losing hand over fist for the love of the flat figures   
2D Figurines

gerhard

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2017, 11:40:47 AM »
Dear Alexander

In the 80s I counted the new flats presented in "Die Zinnfigur"
The best year was 1600 new flats (all sizes) the worst was 900 new flats.
I have my origins in a Family of Business People. The best word in Business is "new".
There will maybe flats forever - but it will be collectors for their own collection. The "world" of flat figure Editors and
Collectors will be gone.
So collectors must pay realistic Prices in future - or the Hobby ist gone forever - soon.
Best Wishes

aba

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2017, 11:06:25 AM »
Dear all,

probably the assumption about flats pricing is true. Because at the moment any editor is just spending money. This was of course not the case in former days. Until about turn of the 21. century moulds got paid off rapidly - at least after the first Kulmbach fair -. Even though this was maybe only true for popular eras like Napoleonic.

Today a new flat had to be paid between 5 and 10 Euros if their sale price were "calculated" by normal businesss methods. When doing less popular eras it had to be even more.

At the moment new  Napoleonic sets will be sold about 30 to 40 times when published and maybe another 10 sets next two years then falling down to about 5. So in effect there will be about 70 to 80 sold during 8 years in average. When sold for 3,00 Euro and deducting the casting foe € 0,60 there is a payback of 2,40 i.e. about € 160 - 180 in 8 years which is not enough to pay drawing and engraving and stone completely which would need about € 280 to recover all costs.

As a consequence all "commercial" or better "non-sponsoring" editors have more or less disappeared from the market during the last decade (unless selling from mould paid off 50 years ago). Todays editors are mainly collectors themselves.

Just a guess, but probably there would be more new flats upcoming each year when a (new) flat could be sold for € 8,-- per horseman. But this price is far off reality when looking at the thousands of "paid" mould existing.

I´m fine getting a 50% payback as I have to admit I do the editing for my collecting/collection and so this helps to cover costs.

Finally there are still 150 to 200 new flats each year what is still not so bad.

Best regards

Alexander

Mike G

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Re: Kulmbach 2017
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2017, 09:55:31 AM »
I think collectors will pay market price no matter what it is. Just look at the prices that Mignot figures fetch, or the battle of murten figures once they're no longer available. If the figures are of high quality and depict subjects in demand, collectors will pay whatever it takes. For example, mineur created the beautiful sets of Venetians with Sontag. I would have paid more for those, as where else can one buy figures like that? Same thing for Alexander's Napoleonic sets. His Bavarian horse artillery would sell at a much higher price I think. Same for Alice in wonderland. The old Retter sets. Etc etc
New York

 

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