Ban Flats!!

[Nicholas Ball]

No.1 commended only? interesting-    Go on then  what have I missed?

[Brian]

Just a reminder, this is for you all to have a go at, it is typical of what could be on the table.

Gold  would be   2 and 4
Bronze  I'll go for 3 not a flat but nice paint
commended   1 and 5

6 would have been moved to  "Miscellaneous" so not judged in flats

So this is my choice, but then hard part begins!  explaining to the owner why no gold this time )- 

[Nicholas Ball]

As Michel said, some are not flat and competitions vary in Europe and here, so I will Judge as such

  1     

 I don't particularly like the Grey he has used as a shadow colour on the yellow, as it kills it a bit, but I cannot fault the painting itself, and we all know that light changes in various conditions. The light direction is spot on and it is an exceptionally well painted piece.

 In UK competition          Gold in Bas relief class
     Europe                      Gold in flat class

2

I don't particularly like the sculpt, especially the faces, but again this is not the criteria.

Painting is again excellent, when viewed from afar the centre figure protrudes and the rear ones retreat. Painting of the faces could be a bit stronger, but the painting for the style is flawless. Boots could be a bit darker, but knowing photography I should think in reality they probably are.

In UK competition          Gold in Traditional Zinnfiguren group
    Europe                      Gold in flat class

3

Basic block painting! 2 tones- with a hint of highlight here and there

However the painting is very good and it could be said flawless for the style. For me it lacks that depth, especially the hair, and compared to the first 2 , it needs that extra highlight to make it pop

In UK competition          Bronze in Miscellaneous class ( is it bas relief- just a piece of carved flat resin ??)
    Europe                      Bronze

4

30mm and very well composed, and they do look very well painted, but the photo hasn't done it any favours. From experience I should think it is Exquisite, hard to judge but I will give it the benefit of the doubt

In UK competition         Gold in Traditional Zinnfiguren group
   Europe                      Gold

5

painting is a bit bland and colours tend to wash into each other, especially the feathers on the hat. The armour needs to be more pronounced with depth and shine. The basics are definitely there, it does need a bit more work.

6

Exquisitely painted, cannot be faulted except it is not a flat, as we define them.

In UK competition            Gold in Miscellaneous class only
   Europe                         Gold

You may not agree with me, but I think I have been fair and honest. Will be interesting to see what others have to say.

[Hannibal]

I dont know the # 5, looks like a flat for the two fellows, and a figurine in the center ! No?

And I saw the #2  in painting, but ignore how it is assembled.

You could have added also a Demi Ronde-bosse (half round bosse) like those of Eisenbach or recent large Napoleon bust ...

Good pannel choice however!

You could also added the first Under discussion in 2013 at Sèvres

[Nicholas Ball]

oh,oh oh, I will start the challenge,   may take a few goes as I keep going back to the figures. Perhaps I should write my comments on paper before hand!!!

right--- back soon

[Brian]

OK, we're still on the judging at shows, first we have to decide what is a flat? many shows have figures in the flat class that are nothing to do with flats!  traditional flats are cast from slate and have a base so self standing, not what we see today at most shows.
The painting is remarkable and could have come from the art studio but hold no life in the figure, the figures that attract my eye are the one's with movement and flamboyancy in the finish, not the picture book figures.

If you have a guide for judges all this needs to be added which will not work, Nick, Michel and myself could look at a table of figures and we will see totally different winners.

So do a bit of judging on these, some are flats some are not?   
   

 

[Hannibal]

I've  no fear with your judging team, Nick!
I would like to be come one too, but hard to find objective judgment criteria between judges when talking with some = absence of guidelines = individual subjectivity ... as described before

[Nicholas Ball]

I don't particularly hold up with the argument they don't paint flats so they don't really know how to judge them!  I don't do tanks or planes but I know a good one when I see one and feel confident enough to be able to judge if necessary without discrepancy.

Perhaps some judge on their likes and dislikes etc. But in theory they should look past the subject and judge on the quality. Perhaps some just don't know quality!! 

With regards our judging pool Michel, most of those so far interested do both rounds and flats, so no problems there

[Hannibal]

Yes indeed, but what I would think is that this judge is stupid, and is only a judge. 

Perhaps he has never seen a flat or never painted one, therefore ha no ability nor is qualified to judge such a artistic work.  The decision to include or excude somepieces of art is the responsability of the organizer of the compétition, and the rules he established before.  Also the appropriate search and finding for judges qualified for the subjects to be evaluated.   

I can perhaps understand that he might have been requested to assess flats, wihout having been exposed, trained or coached to do so.  This is another issue related to the appropriate selection of qualified judges.  H has just to declare that he is not able to give such judgment for this catégory of models.

[Brian]

Had a good flow and it looks like my last post stopped the "talk" on the banning of Flats at shows, but thanks to all who posted. 

[Hannibal]

More and more in (continental) Europe, flats are judged separately from figures, with reason, except some irréductibles gallic shows... and even better in absence of any guidelines explaining the différences between the two classes.  A painter of figures becoming judge for a flat will not consider te specificities of a flat, and probably reversely.  But painters f both types would be, so it is to be considered when setting up a judges team at a show.

[Nicholas Ball]

Well it all depends on the meaning of modelling? ( sculptors/ engravers excluded at present)

Round figure busts are not many parts or rocket science!  head, body, feather in the cap-- 3 parts glued then painted, so is this really modelling? Most 54mm only consist of 6-10 pieces, and nowadays the fit of parts is so good they literally clip together, so surely at the end of the day it is just a painting skill!! Which is why I think flats can be included with the round figures for judging.

real modelling in my mind are the kits with 100s of parts that need to be cut out and glued on, and then painted, but these are catered for in their own classes. Therefore, should a perfectly painted flat be able to beat them for Best of Show-   Yes, but the painting must be of a remarkably high calibre with minimal ( if any )mistakes.

I do,however think, that there should be a best of show for figures and a best of show for military vehicles/ planes as this would encourage and cater for both types of  'modelling'.

Wasn't trying to bash the Judges, just the one with the obnoxious view

All good art, whether it be paintings, flats, models, sculpture etc. should d all be in galleries and museums, they are all exceptional things of creative beauty.

They are by definition models, so if it's not modelling, what other category would you put it in?

[Brian]

Hang no a minute, this was not lets bash the judges, it has been know for me to be one!!!
But is the painting of flats modelling?  or are they works of art as we keep getting told and should be in a gallery?
     

[Nicholas Ball]

No names, it would be unworthy of us.

We are currently creating a list of Judges within the society who are willing to do such tasks.I will be informing societies and clubs that should they like us to help out, then we will

Judges within the Society will not be able to enter competitions, must act fairly and without prejudice,discrimination and bias. And most of all must be willing to justify the reasons for their decisions when and if approached by the artists concerned in a quiet and friendly manner.
Anyone who would like to be considered for such a challenging role, please let me know

You do not necessarily need to be a gold / silver medal winner, but you must have a good eye for detail and a fair knowledge of light and shade. Perfectionists will do nicely

[Roger]

Well who was it? Then at least I'll know who to laugh at.