Author Topic: All lost?  (Read 1031 times)

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Glen

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2017, 05:33:26 PM »
Brian, 3D printing has indeed improved over the last 'few' years  - not only in terms of accuracy and ease of use, but in lower (relative) costs as well. I say relative because I can quite pull the trigger on an $800.00 program to design and sculpt the master. Such an investment would likely drive me into a business, which I don't want to do.


My own investigations (last year) have looked at 75 - 100mm pieces. The software and printers should easily handle flats in these sizes. I'm not sure that a metal cast piece would be as thin as current flats and the resin pieces (normally thicker to prevent/inhibit warping) would only be about an 1/8th - 3/16th of inch thick - around what Yvan Durand's current resin pieces are. On the other hand, the face of the piece is what's important, not what/how much is behind it.


Perhaps it's time to look again...

nmrocks

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2017, 11:55:14 AM »
Obviously, with 3-D printing, at this point the devils in the detail! :P
Ray

Mike G

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2017, 06:32:02 AM »
It's a really interesting suggestion. I suspect at some point the technology will exist if it doesn't already
New York

Brian

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2017, 04:02:06 AM »

The elephant has been looked in to  ::) Nick ,Chris and myself asked a 3D printer company if the flat figure could be mastered. We had lots of encouraging responses to our questions until I show them a typical flat, was told the outline can be done but the detail no, so the idea was forgot.


Maybe 3D should be approached again as things have progressed in the last few years  ::)
     
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Glen

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2017, 09:29:01 PM »
Ah ...engravers (and presumably the artists providing the drawings) both good and bad. And some perhaps resting on their laurels. This is a trait that is shared in the model and figure kit industries, and for that matter, MG parts as well. So what to do? Well, there's an elephant in the room that no one seems able to talk about - computer generated and 3D printed masters for figures and model accessories. Have any of you taken a hard look at what is being developed lately? The level of detail is mind boggling and, depending on the printer, it can be reproduced in any of the common scales - quickly. Use the right printing media and the masters could be set up for metal casting in high temp hard rubber molds or RTV rubber for resin. So, who is going to be the first to develop a 3D printed flat (despite the inevitable backlash)?


Discuss. Civilly...


 8)

Mike G

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2017, 08:00:37 AM »
I do agree with Brian on the quality of some of today's engravers. At their best, I think friedrich and lepeltier are nearly at frank levels. Some of the figures that lepeltiwr has engraved for Alexander are exquisite. Sontag also has a nice quality that I equate to the maiers in some ways.  Also agree that the quality on some of these large figures doesn't appear to be there
New York

Brian

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2017, 06:37:10 AM »

Just a little point, L.Frank,  Maier and Mohr and the like did pave the way and proudest some of the best figures( not all are so good) we can get, but todays engravers are just as good if not better,  Wolfgang. Friedrich is our modern Frank, W.Otto  is todays Mohr and the 30mm figures from Daniel Lepeltier, Wolfgang Bock,  Regina Sonntage and K Reiger are in a lot of ways better then what we had before.


we are lucky to be able to get such great figures from the pass and today, don't dismiss the current new engraves figures.   
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Joerg

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2017, 04:43:31 AM »
Aba did a good summarizing (?) of the topic -why and where larger figures than 30 mm in the present.

As to the engraver's quality I do not match Oleg's opinion,
but that is not the point.

The point is, that everybody is free to choose his preferred size and era, because there are plenty for all of them.

And if an engraver of Frank's quality is not seen again - this  happened with other extremlx skilled and talented men too, e.g. Rembradt and Beethoven.
The times, they are a'changing (that's from another talented man I personally do not like over the top.)
Liquorice, sire, is not the least important of our benefits out of the dark heart of Arabia.

G.K.Chesterton

oleg

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2017, 07:08:31 PM »
Personally I have never been interested in other sizes or other than 30 mm historical flats with one exception : larger flats engraved by L.Frank.
Good night


That is the point yet not covered in this discussion. Quality of big flat figures. I am not buying them not only because of the size but because of poor engraving quality. There's no engraver today who could be compared to Frank, Maier the younger, Thieme etc. Modern engravers are not encouraging collectors like me to hunt and buy their figures. It will be interesting to know other collectors opinion on this matter.
Best wishes to everybody.
Oleg

Hannibal

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2017, 04:49:17 PM »
Strange enough, it seems very much market focused:  the main selling business is in Germany, which is also still heavily focused on 30 mm size.  In France, exceptions is Segom.

But in shows and competitions in France, Spain, Holland, UK, USA, Belgium, 30 mm size is very very minor, as most flat are larger, 54mm up to 160mm and busts and made of metal, or resin, but most sellers are also located in Germany.

But my view may be disorted as only perceived thruogh exhibitions and shows, or compétitions, fewer seen or visited in Germany and much more in France, Belgium, Spain which are preopably also icbergs above the sea.

Success of the two ranges should not be measured as what was painted in the past, but the number of flats painted each year since maximum five years, and even sellers are not reliable as there are(like me) collectors of unpainted figures. I speak about figures painted nowadays per year in the countries (few said about italy, for example, .... or Scandinavia...)
Michel

aba

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2017, 04:32:30 PM »
Dear all,


flats always had different functions. When being a childs toy to the end of 19. century they had various sizes (not scales) and even today they are not a true "scale miniature" as horses are traditionally smaller than in real life compared to the size of its horseman.


Then they became a collectors item. When writing the intro of my site about 20 years ago I stated there were three main "types" of flats collectors :


- the wargamer
- the "stamp collector"
- the diorama builder


and of course mixtures of these and mostly connected with a historical interest. Many collectors are focused on a certain historical era.


But nowadays we have a new type collector : the painter.


And this "painter" made the 54mm and larger scale flats more popular than they had been before.


Those who are coming from the earlier era will probably just rarely leave their traditional 30mm for larger scales.

[/size]As far as I know the 54mm figures never sold very well as the painters were a smaller community. Several editors of larger flats consequently quit editing this range . But interest may have increased somewhat over the years. But I´m not really sure about that.


To my estimation there are probably still more than 80% collectors of 30mm historical flats in Germany. Nevertheless probably 50% of these have occasionally bought flats of other sizes as well.


So I do not think there is a true "change" going on.


But there are of course no reliable facts on all this available.


Personally I have never been interested in other sizes or other than 30 mm historical flats with one exception : larger flats engraved by L.Frank.


Good night

Hannibal

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2017, 11:23:42 AM »
Read again Gerhard message below.
and ... after how many years and thousands of 30 flats were museum rreated for flat figures?  The larger one have only 25 years history and a wide public. 

Even the museum of Plassenburg starts to have showcases contining large flat and busts : http://www.intflatfigures.org/index.php?topic=3034.msg19979#msg19979
and did not rejet them as non flat art toys ....

This is evolution, world change, diversification, new opportunities.  The art f flat figure has nothing to do with the size, but the shape and concept of the flat as relief gravure and its painting technique to render the three dimensional effect.

(I can't give you the definition on Wikipédia, because I am in Turkey and wikipedia access is blocked there, but read the definition of a flat ....)
Michel

böckchen

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2017, 10:33:07 AM »
All good reasons.
But let's not imagine anything, we are flat-figure friends and not a model railroad. Where to go to a toy store and buy a locomotive with rails.
The track size is desired, O, H0, G or Z?
See who has the choice.
I grew up with the 30 mm size. And everything that is bigger is showcases and what is smaller are background figures. What I do not understand is now also called flat figures when you paint plates or slices.
What will become of the many great figures, I ask? Do they have a museum or a hall to name their own?
Large figures are presented as presentation objects. And are gladly passed on to non-collectors.
A nice idea, as I think.
Since most of the mold owners do not operate a supermarket, we will always keep manufacturers in check.
We are something special !!
We are unique!
We are World Heritage!
And we are not Hollywood !!
We are real and authentic !!
In this sense, we remain loyal to our cause. :) :) :) :)
best regards
Wolfgang


gerhard gady

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2017, 05:20:09 AM »
It is interesting. The first flat figures in history were big flats (10 cm and bigger) like the famous Hilpert Figures.
Then came the Norddeutsche Größe (which, i think is 40 mm) and then Heinrichsen (Nürnberger Größe" 28 mm.
So the flat figure goes back to the origins. I also think, that the big figures an busts are keeping the art of flat figures alive.
Times Change.

Brian

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Re: All lost?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2017, 04:12:09 AM »
Listen to Michel, the larger single figure is keeping the flats going and bringing new painters in. I will always collect and paint 30mm but we need the new larger figure as well, without it we will be to last flat collectors and all will be lost!! 
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