International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society
Flat Figures Painters Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kulmbach on May 24, 2017, 12:07:49 PM
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When I saw the pictures from one continentel figur show now presented at the Forum, showing 90% large scale ladies in various staged of nudity and even bigger bust figures, I then wondered what has happend to the figures I fell in love and began to collect in the mid 50:ies, and still love?
Jan
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Dear Kulmbach,
I totally agree with you. I am really disappointed with the spin that our hobby takes. There are so many interesting historic subjects to be depicted using flat figure. Why nude girls in semi-historical dress? What a flood of low taste and poorly engravings. Ludvig Frank could work in different scales but mistakes of most modern engravers are obvious, especially when they are trying to copy great masters of the past. No respect for Rembrandt, Van Eyck and others. And why big scale metal flat portret - take a canvas and try to do a scale copy. Somebody may say - Oh, you are too serious. It is just a hobby. Yes, it is my hobby and I am taking it very serious. I can not talk about it in a low temper, because everything is boiling inside me when I see where it all goes.
Oleg
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Times and tastes change seems to fit this category.
While not my cup of tea generally, I am quite impressed at times with some of the painting skills from some of these folks. (Much like some of the monsters and super hero figures - again not my thing but, some stunning figures.)
Given the declining interest in our hobby we seem ironically in a 'Golden Age' with a wealth of figures, time eras and categories. This statement is true with the broader hobby as a whole with every tank/plane being available in kit form.
Like many other phases on our hobby I suspect this too will find it's place and we will move on to other new territories. (Some recent fads that seem here to stay are figure busts as started by Mike Good, wedgies - partial tanks or planes with figures - John Rosengrant and large scale flats. I have a few of the latter but, still prefer 30mm.)
For me, there is too much in life to get angry about without letting it invade my hobby life.
mark 8)
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Just not as many traditionalists left. I only paint 30mm figures, and most were engraved long ago. But to each their own. There is certainly a trend towards large scale non military but I suspect it's just a trend.
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????
Nude women in semi historical dresses has been a subject for painters since many centuries, when looking at the Renaissance, later Rembrandt, impressionism, ene even more recently in the XX and the XXI centuries ....
First shoking the well thinking persons used to classicism, but later copied and multiplied....
Wha to say about 30mm flats like the Greek and Egyptian legends, the Night of Walpurgis engraved by a well known Mohr, Egyptians bathing , most visited and read flat on this site, so very popular?
Ignoring these forms of art whuch have always existed seems a bit overreacting.
But it is true that the old 30mm historical flats are no longer as popular today as in the past, replaced by other art expressions in moovies, painting, sculpture, and ... flat painting. Also fantastic figurines is a new area nt existing 50 years ago, and which exploded during the recent 20 years !!!
As a matter of fact, my wife, Turksih is painting almost only these kind of flat paintings if you go and see my gallery and her section ... If we deny these subjects and fantastic, I am afraid our hobby will die within less than five years ..... and be only visible in musea like our old telephones, typewriting machines and TSF radios ....
We can say the same with modern music, like rap and the others and we should perhaps ask oursleves : is it not US that are aging and no longer evolving with the world that surrounds us?
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Well there is a old saying :o Sex sells :o Also it is what sells the best rather it be in figures or published books. An example would be say Uniforms of the German Army :P There is so much out there on this subject it makes my head hurt :-[ but it pays the bills. You are dealing with a younger generation who have been brought up with this stuff and want it now. If they cant get it by a touch of a figure on a key board they don't want to do it :'( . Some of the new figures coming out today are outstanding ??? . There is such a wide range out there. :o I think there is always going to be something for everyone. If you want to get a young person interested in this hobby unplug the cell phone and place a book in front of him ??? . Get a cheap figure or kit and work with him or her. Willie
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Yes, a hobby is changing and that is good.
There are still some editors of classical tin figures, which also engrave new figures, eg. W. Bock, R. Fischer, U. Emke, F. Dittmar, and others. And there are still many forms that are new to be edited, eg. At Zinnfiguren Fleesensee. So nothing is lost. It is rather the flat tin figures are now richer, with fantasy, manga, horror figures and sexy girls.
Sure, you will not see any more great figures at exhibitions / competitions, because you can make these figures more artistic than with small historical figures.
There will be both the Historical 30 mm figure and also the big girls;)
Because I do not worry.
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So there's room for both, as someone who dabbles in the sell of flats here's a few observations.
At shows the larger figures sell but unless the 30mm set is from the "old masters" they will go home with me.
Girls? as already been said sex sells!! Joerg and myself produce pinups and they sell well but I think the big problem is being able to get the figures in the first place.
We have the inter net which has made things so much easier but the painter likes to see the figure in the tin before buying and this is not happening, editors can be a funny lot at times and pick and chose who they will do business with, some take Paypal and some don't so the market from the UK and USA is limited.
The collector I believe will always be there but is reducing in numbers, we are not showing the new 30mm flats as much as the old. at a show you will see a painted set from Mohr or Haffer but when did you last see a set by Wolfgang Bock, Wolfgang Friedrich or the great figures being made buy Alexander Barden, more exposure of the 30mm military figure is needed or the large figures will continue to out sell and the traditional flat figure will be a thing of the pass
Forgot to say, producing the large single figure cost a lot less then producing a set of 30mm therefor more can be made.
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I would attribute the fading of the 30mm flat, in great part, to the aging of the flat painter community.
At 70, i need some serious magnification to do one.
Also, the incredible amount of large scale, superbly casted large flats has skyrocketed(thanks Benedikt and Jupiter Miniatures).
I enjoy them more than the 30mm...but still do an occasional classic flat.
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I have the reverse path, started with large scale flats, and since two years, turn more & more to the 30 mm = they are so rich, beautiful to and diversified.
Also they allow me to investigate deeply the history and the History, of each character, which let me re-discover the past of what human beeings have not as good and horrible in the past leading us to what we are today and why we love to make war to everyone around us continuousely for futilities and ambition of power and egocentricity, a major characteristics that animals don't fortunately have, and make them more respectful than humans !
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It is interesting but, one of the things that drew me to flats after 40 years with rounds was the wealth of non-Military figures. Where else did you have the wealth of Egyptian figures or an Egyptian fire brigade or a Rococo ball? For me great stuff.
Someone also mentioned Frank's wonderful set of an an Egyptian bath as well as Mohr's Walpurgis not to mention Mohr's Medieval bath all of which I find quite charming when they are well painted. (Mohr definitely had a sense of humor which comes out in his figures.)
The variety of choice is definitely one of the main pluses of flats.
mark 8)
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;) :-* :) :) ;D
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I totally agree with Jan!
For me, the classic 30-mm flat figure is ”The Real Thing” but also 45-mm may do. But the large ones, the busts, pendants and whatnot, are NOT tin figures, as far as I am concerned.
They are something else and incomparable to the real flat tin figure. In the Kulmbach competition, they should be entered in a class of their own.
:)
/Louis
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Nice discussions on the table.
However, we have to remember that
1) Flat figures in exhibitions, compétitions ad show represent globally about 5 to 8% of the figures presented
2) Small sizes (30 mm, even 40 mm) flats are declining in volume since the XXth century, mosty handled (there are exceptions), by people getting older, not so much by Young painters
3) New painters of small flats do'nt paint any longer large series like in the past, but single pièces with more détails, reducing the volume, but also the profitability of such business = single moulds for 30mm size are too expensive, serie moulds don't sell as many flats in the serie are satying behind in stock. Therefore traditonal series are less and les profitable.
4) Newer and younger painters are more attracted by larger size flats (54 to 120mm), busts, and non historic or soldiers themes and subjects. These are flats figures anyway.
5) It is true that today single 30 mm flats ar less chance of being awarded as they have less visibility than the larger ones, but creating a separate class will emphasize their decline. The same if we separate busts apart, historical subjects, fantasy, fantastic, .... in many subclasses ... when then on a 40 to 70 maximum pièces presented in a competition in Europe (agasint the 500 to 1200 round figures!!), will no longer be attractive and at most would leave one award by CLASS due to their multiplication ..
I see more the 30 mm flat business declining to the benefit of newer sizes and themes. Of course it causes nostalgy for older painters, but the same occurs with round figures where also fantastic themes, animals, busts are growing towards historical 54 and 75 mm sizes, contributing to maintain this business and art alive !!!
We see the same decline for large or medium dioramas towards single figures or sanyetes of 2 or 3 characters. Rejecting these new mode will accelerate the killing of the business.
We see the same rejection behaviour of the few painting of subjects on flat, non engraved surface duriung the last few years (like painting works of A. Retuerto, C. Cesario, a bit of Y. Durand on mangas, JP Duthilleul on a few). These are not flat figures defined as engraved surfaces in two dimensions to be painted as three dimensions by the art of painting. I had also the same rejection assimilating those as "miniatures", paintings like old painters on canvas, wood, ...
But this is a new kind ( or résurrection of an old) of painting requiring also the talent of drawing himself the subject, so in some sense more skills than painting a pre-engraved subject. Their volume is much too low to create a separate class (only 1 to 3 per show), but it should also not be rejected, but rather encourage until a separate group can be open and more artists be participating to this world of "figurines". Indeed subjects are similar, and no other show exists to have them growing.
We are not here to kill forms of art, but to promote them, grow, diversify. Noverlty is always causing rejection by traditionnalists, but attraction by modernists. The firts will resist, the other push, ... Where is progress then ?? Should be stay with cavern painting, or egyptian bas-relief as unique way of painting ?? Use post and handwritten letters are only method of communication?
We are free to select the one that fits us the best and convince in show or competition that we continue to please, to be the best in our art, hoping this form will continue to be popular and competitive ....
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Listen to Michel, the larger single figure is keeping the flats going and bringing new painters in. I will always collect and paint 30mm but we need the new larger figure as well, without it we will be to last flat collectors and all will be lost!!
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It is interesting. The first flat figures in history were big flats (10 cm and bigger) like the famous Hilpert Figures.
Then came the Norddeutsche Größe (which, i think is 40 mm) and then Heinrichsen (Nürnberger Größe" 28 mm.
So the flat figure goes back to the origins. I also think, that the big figures an busts are keeping the art of flat figures alive.
Times Change.
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All good reasons.
But let's not imagine anything, we are flat-figure friends and not a model railroad. Where to go to a toy store and buy a locomotive with rails.
The track size is desired, O, H0, G or Z?
See who has the choice.
I grew up with the 30 mm size. And everything that is bigger is showcases and what is smaller are background figures. What I do not understand is now also called flat figures when you paint plates or slices.
What will become of the many great figures, I ask? Do they have a museum or a hall to name their own?
Large figures are presented as presentation objects. And are gladly passed on to non-collectors.
A nice idea, as I think.
Since most of the mold owners do not operate a supermarket, we will always keep manufacturers in check.
We are something special !!
We are unique!
We are World Heritage!
And we are not Hollywood !!
We are real and authentic !!
In this sense, we remain loyal to our cause. :) :) :) :)
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Read again Gerhard message below.
and ... after how many years and thousands of 30 flats were museum rreated for flat figures? The larger one have only 25 years history and a wide public.
Even the museum of Plassenburg starts to have showcases contining large flat and busts : http://www.intflatfigures.org/index.php?topic=3034.msg19979#msg19979
and did not rejet them as non flat art toys ....
This is evolution, world change, diversification, new opportunities. The art f flat figure has nothing to do with the size, but the shape and concept of the flat as relief gravure and its painting technique to render the three dimensional effect.
(I can't give you the definition on Wikipédia, because I am in Turkey and wikipedia access is blocked there, but read the definition of a flat ....)
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Dear all,
flats always had different functions. When being a childs toy to the end of 19. century they had various sizes (not scales) and even today they are not a true "scale miniature" as horses are traditionally smaller than in real life compared to the size of its horseman.
Then they became a collectors item. When writing the intro of my site about 20 years ago I stated there were three main "types" of flats collectors :
- the wargamer
- the "stamp collector"
- the diorama builder
and of course mixtures of these and mostly connected with a historical interest. Many collectors are focused on a certain historical era.
But nowadays we have a new type collector : the painter.
And this "painter" made the 54mm and larger scale flats more popular than they had been before.
Those who are coming from the earlier era will probably just rarely leave their traditional 30mm for larger scales.
[/size]As far as I know the 54mm figures never sold very well as the painters were a smaller community. Several editors of larger flats consequently quit editing this range . But interest may have increased somewhat over the years. But I´m not really sure about that.
To my estimation there are probably still more than 80% collectors of 30mm historical flats in Germany. Nevertheless probably 50% of these have occasionally bought flats of other sizes as well.
So I do not think there is a true "change" going on.
But there are of course no reliable facts on all this available.
Personally I have never been interested in other sizes or other than 30 mm historical flats with one exception : larger flats engraved by L.Frank.
Good night
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Strange enough, it seems very much market focused: the main selling business is in Germany, which is also still heavily focused on 30 mm size. In France, exceptions is (deleted).
But in shows and competitions in France, Spain, Holland, UK, USA, Belgium, 30 mm size is very very minor, as most flat are larger, 54mm up to 160mm and busts and made of metal, or resin, but most sellers are also located in Germany.
But my view may be disorted as only perceived thruogh exhibitions and shows, or compétitions, fewer seen or visited in Germany and much more in France, Belgium, Spain which are preopably also icbergs above the sea.
Success of the two ranges should not be measured as what was painted in the past, but the number of flats painted each year since maximum five years, and even sellers are not reliable as there are(like me) collectors of unpainted figures. I speak about figures painted nowadays per year in the countries (few said about italy, for example, .... or Scandinavia...)
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Personally I have never been interested in other sizes or other than 30 mm historical flats with one exception : larger flats engraved by L.Frank.
Good night
That is the point yet not covered in this discussion. Quality of big flat figures. I am not buying them not only because of the size but because of poor engraving quality. There's no engraver today who could be compared to Frank, Maier the younger, Thieme etc. Modern engravers are not encouraging collectors like me to hunt and buy their figures. It will be interesting to know other collectors opinion on this matter.
Best wishes to everybody.
Oleg
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Aba did a good summarizing (?) of the topic -why and where larger figures than 30 mm in the present.
As to the engraver's quality I do not match Oleg's opinion,
but that is not the point.
The point is, that everybody is free to choose his preferred size and era, because there are plenty for all of them.
And if an engraver of Frank's quality is not seen again - this happened with other extremlx skilled and talented men too, e.g. Rembradt and Beethoven.
The times, they are a'changing (that's from another talented man I personally do not like over the top.)
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Just a little point, L.Frank, Maier and Mohr and the like did pave the way and proudest some of the best figures( not all are so good) we can get, but todays engravers are just as good if not better, Wolfgang. Friedrich is our modern Frank, W.Otto is todays Mohr and the 30mm figures from Daniel Lepeltier, Wolfgang Bock, Regina Sonntage and K Reiger are in a lot of ways better then what we had before.
we are lucky to be able to get such great figures from the pass and today, don't dismiss the current new engraves figures.
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I do agree with Brian on the quality of some of today's engravers. At their best, I think friedrich and lepeltier are nearly at frank levels. Some of the figures that lepeltiwr has engraved for Alexander are exquisite. Sontag also has a nice quality that I equate to the maiers in some ways. Also agree that the quality on some of these large figures doesn't appear to be there
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Ah ...engravers (and presumably the artists providing the drawings) both good and bad. And some perhaps resting on their laurels. This is a trait that is shared in the model and figure kit industries, and for that matter, MG parts as well. So what to do? Well, there's an elephant in the room that no one seems able to talk about - computer generated and 3D printed masters for figures and model accessories. Have any of you taken a hard look at what is being developed lately? The level of detail is mind boggling and, depending on the printer, it can be reproduced in any of the common scales - quickly. Use the right printing media and the masters could be set up for metal casting in high temp hard rubber molds or RTV rubber for resin. So, who is going to be the first to develop a 3D printed flat (despite the inevitable backlash)?
Discuss. Civilly...
8)
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The elephant has been looked in to ::) Nick ,Chris and myself asked a 3D printer company if the flat figure could be mastered. We had lots of encouraging responses to our questions until I show them a typical flat, was told the outline can be done but the detail no, so the idea was forgot.
Maybe 3D should be approached again as things have progressed in the last few years ::)
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It's a really interesting suggestion. I suspect at some point the technology will exist if it doesn't already
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Obviously, with 3-D printing, at this point the devils in the detail! :P
Ray
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Brian, 3D printing has indeed improved over the last 'few' years - not only in terms of accuracy and ease of use, but in lower (relative) costs as well. I say relative because I can quite pull the trigger on an $800.00 program to design and sculpt the master. Such an investment would likely drive me into a business, which I don't want to do.
My own investigations (last year) have looked at 75 - 100mm pieces. The software and printers should easily handle flats in these sizes. I'm not sure that a metal cast piece would be as thin as current flats and the resin pieces (normally thicker to prevent/inhibit warping) would only be about an 1/8th - 3/16th of inch thick - around what Yvan Durand's current resin pieces are. On the other hand, the face of the piece is what's important, not what/how much is behind it.
Perhaps it's time to look again...